Trouble with logo on AA paint

[maxxpaane]

Hey guys, I'm having trouble with little paint specs lifting off my helmet. I'm trying to put a cut out Triumph stencil on that British helmet. I put 3 coats of the AA intercoat base on and still getting paint specks lifting. Can I spray on SG100 as an intercoat? MP

[dubie]

Yep you can, as long as you apply it in light coats. If you pound it on, you'll end up with your base coat drooping. I have used Standox clear base as an inter coat over Auto Air on many occasions with great results.

What kind of prep work did you do under the base colors? That may be the root of your problem

[fontgeek]

Dubie beat me to the prep question, it sounds like your paint isn't bonding well to the helmet, it could be prep work (or the lack of it), contamination, or maybe the need for an adhesion promoter with your paint.

[maxxpaane]

It's a brand new helmet. I degreased, scuffed with 400 till no shine left. Degreased again and washed with with soap and water. I put 1 light and 2 med coats of AA sealer white on. Heat curing with a blow dryer between coats. Then same thing with white basecoat. Let dry for 24 hrs after that. I didn't have any prob when I taped the whole flag both sides. Tons of green tape and blue fine line tape. But now the red or blue paint wants to come up, not alot just little specs. MP

[fontgeek]

Is it just the blue and red that come up, or does the white sealer coat come up too?

If the white is coming up too, then I would look at the prep work done, or at the sealer paint itself. If the surface is good and clean, then the 600 grit should give you enough tooth on the helmet to work with. If the sealer is not good, or isn't thoroughly mixed, then it may not be giving you the bonding it should.
If it's the red and blue coming off the white sealer, then, I would look to see if the white sealer layer got contaminated with oils from your skin, or something else in your environment.
How glossy is your sealer coat?
If it's too smooth and shiny, that may be the cause of your problems, it won't give much tooth when it's that smooth.

[Shiva]

Hey guys, I'm having trouble with little paint specs lifting off my helmet. I'm trying to put a cut out Triumph stencil on that British helmet. I put 3 coats of the AA intercoat base on and still getting paint specks lifting. MP

this the 4004 transparent base? I had an RV body completely lose its paint using that..down to where I put it on.

[DNauss]

Sorry if I'm hijacking but I seem to have run into the same problem yesterday. I'm doing a goalie mask with AA. The mask is some kind of plastic. I removed all the old paint, scuffed, sprayed a plastic adhesion promoter I had for doing automotive bumpers etc. , then AA sealer black. I sealed the base colors in with a couple coats of clear before the grafics and got a run...in the process of removing the run , the clear and base lifted right down to the bare plastic. I sanded it and fixed the spot but I'm scared the first puck it sees could be tragic. I'd start over but I don't know what I would have done different. Does AA not bite to plastic as well as say urethane? Maybe someone can fix both our problems.

[maxxpaane]

I ended up calling a guy from AA today and I've been doing the curing process backwards. Airdry first then if you need to heat cure. I was using a hairdryer as soon as I was done spraying. It will actually hurt the paint and turn it more rubbery like latex.He doesn't recommend using the 4000 trans base as an intercoat either, which I've been doing also. He does recommend an AP over plastic, I'm not sure what went wrong with your goalie mask. MP

[DNauss]

I guess I to have been doing it wrong. I was also using a hair dryer shortly after I sprayed. I don't remember if I did that with the sealer or not. Maybe I put the sealer on too thick. Did he recommend any certain kind of AP? maybe what I had won't work on this kind of plastic...whatever it is.

[Shiva]

OK, question.. HOW MANY HERE seem to have a 'sticking problem' between AP and AA base coat?
I am wondering, since I had 2 fail there, that the AP MUST BE 'solvent something' (primed/top coated) OVER the AP and before the AA base coats.. primed meaning regular solvent based primer or a color coat, like the 2 part auto paint does?

[maxxpaane]

he rcommends Bulldog or PPG one choice. Also your first layer of AA should be the 4000 series sealers white or dark. MP

[dubie]

I have done many helmets using only Auto Air paints and have never had an adhesion problem. The steps I use are..... ( and this works for me, may not be for everyone)

Step 1: wet sand the surface with 400 grit

Step 2: wax and grease remover

Step 3: Tack rag the entire thing

Step 4 : apply 1 coat of adhesion promoter ( I use Duplicolor) let it flash off and apply another coat

Step 5 : I give it 2 light coats of a filler primer to catch any scratches I may have missed.

Step 6: Sand the primer smooth with 1000 grit

Step : Basecoat time. ( I rarely used sealer)

[maxxpaane]

Nice Tim, I also asked him what I could use to clean off the helmet before clearing and he said reg mineral spirits. I'm going to have to try that on a junk piece. Somehow you would think that would take the AA right off. Got the logo on.MP

[dubie]

NICE!!! I take it you must have a plotter??

[maxxpaane]

30" from signwarehouse. I really messed up spraying it though. I should have gone over it with the dark blue or grey first. I built up the white and the logo feels like it's a foot of the helmet. Prob take 50 coats of clear to blend lol!! MP

[DNauss]

I can see that working with the primer. Dubie the helmets were they fiberglass or a plastic like material. I used a R-M product...1K plastic primer I think is whats on the can. Max That helmet does look really cool...make sure you post pics when it's done. Is there any way to test adhesion? I only had problems in this one spot...I can put masking tape on the base and it won't peal when you pull it off. Man I wish I knew what to do.

[maxxpaane]

DNauss did you mention that you degreased at all? Could have been some oily spots on there. MP

[DNauss]

I did use a wax and grease remover. wiped on and wiped off then tacked...just as if I were doing any autobody painting. I'm not ruling anything out though...may have been contamination off my gloves or something. I was so caught up in spraying the AA for the first time maybe I missed something obvious like that. What do you think? would you keep going or start over?

[maxxpaane]

I'm kinda in the same boat here that you are. I just decided to coat it with some SG100 yesterday and I was able to get my logo on without anymore paint lift. I'm really not sure how well it will hold up after I clear it. All I know is that being my first helmet with AA I'm learning what's working and what isn't. You're doing exactly how I would prob do it. The one thing the guy said is making sure the paint is completely dry before doing any taping or clearing in your case. MP

[Carlos]

I've had similar problems with specs of both transparent and semi opaque AA lifting off the AA basecoats. The problem was even worse where the basecoat had a veery smooth finish to it.

I think the way I'm going, is to ditch AA basecoats all together and just find a bumper primer that works, and just work on top of that.

If you're usingAAs on top of an adhesion promoter, I found best results were to shoot it on straight away, dont let the promoter dry for too long, or it isnt effective.

[Shiva]

read the Bulldog primer..

Bulldog CAN BE PAINTED within ANY solvent based paint WITHIN 5-10 MINUTES.. solvent based paints can be applied BY BRUSH when Bulldog is tack free, within 15-20 minutes.


this is per the can... SO, my thought is that the AA base coat wont work as DIRECT over the Bulldog??
now, whats to stop a person from spraying a sandable primer OVER the Bulldog, then spraying the AA base OVER the auto primer???

2nd question, whats the OTHER plastic rated AP's say as far as time to overcoat, and with WHAT???

[maxxpaane]

The guy at Auto Air said bulldog then AA sealer and then AA basecoat. I don't have any bulldog but will be getting it this week. MP

[Carlos]

I just thought I'd update this thread, as it might help a lot of peeps... I've done a few more AA jobs on plastic substrate since this thread was last active, and my advice to peeps out there is never ever shoot AA base sealers directly onto plastics, as you will have an adhesion problem! AA base is very poor at sticking to plastics, and things like body filler.. you need to find a source of plastic primer, then shoot your AAs on top of that. Make sure you scuff up the substrate real good.. 320 grit or more. Thoroughly degrease to get any release agents off.

I use a cheap rattle can plastic primer for bumpers, and AAs stick fine to it! And the primer sticks fine to the plastic... problem solved! Sometimes I dont even bother with the base sealer; I just shoot colours straight onto the plastic primer, again with no adhesion issues.

When it comes to applying heat to dry AAs, again, I find so long as you follow the process there is no problem with adhesion. Always aim to build up AAs in light coats, usually 3 or 4 will give you 100% coverage. First coat you should still see a lot of primer; dry it up with cold air from a cheap household fan, or use a hairdryer or heat gun. Heat is faster, but not necessary. 2nd coat should give you almost complete coverage, but still some primer visible. dry it again, between coats (if cold air, allow it 10 mins or so). 3rd coat, same work through, and complete coverage. As soon as it's dried, you should be able to tape it with a good quality tape and no adhesion problems. It might help to tack rag defore applying each coat, just to lift off any dust overspray, especially if its a large item, because the dust may affect adhesion if you spray on top of it.

Just one last thing to be careful of if shooting colours over primer, and taping anything out: the colour may bleed under tape llines because the primer will be quite rough; it may help to work on a wet sanded primer.. again be careful building up AAs in layers because they are water based makes them easy to over-apply, and bleed under tape. Patience is a virtue I've found when it comes to waterbased AAs.

[maxxpaane]

Forgot about this thread. Yup, air dry or cool air is the key at first then you can use a hairdyer, don't force it or it will become like a rubbery latex and that will cause all kinds of problems. As far as the tape bleed, that's where I will usually shoot some sg100 or sometimes even the same base color over the tape edges to prevent any bleedthrough, it's always worked for me. MP

[Carlos]

Forgot about this thread. Yup, air dry or cool air is the key at first then you can use a hairdyer, don't force it or it will become like a rubbery latex and that will cause all kinds of problems. As far as the tape bleed, that's where I will usually shoot some sg100 or sometimes even the same base color over the tape edges to prevent any bleedthrough, it's always worked for me. MPI think the mistake that people make Maxx is to use a heat gun and get in there, real close with it! Too hot! I use a low powered hair dryer, so low heat but enough to speed up the drying. After it's visually dry, and touch dry, I'm straight in with the next coat, applied as suggested, and no adhesion problems. I can tape it immediately. The guy who distributes AA in the UK Simon Morris SM designs, in his DVD he chases out the moisture with a heat gun, and quite close up.. again with no issues. I'm not sure about the technique, because I've seen a latex type seperation occur in AAs, and I remember putting up pics here some time ago. It was more noticable on black. Quite alarming but it doesn't show once cleared. Just wonder if the paint I was sold was quite old stock and sitting on the shelf for a long time.. it seemed to seperate out just from the heat of my hand over it!