problem with paint

[madmatt54]

I'm using one-shot and a Kafka brush, which I love. Much easier than the mack, but I've run into a problem. I can't seem to get the paint to cooperate.

I thin it using mineral spirits to the point the paint is transparent and runs just trying to get it to flow, then a few seconds later the paint it so thick it won't flow off the brush. Basically I get about 20 seconds of too thin, 20 seconds of decent, and then it's too thick. It is really hard to learn when I get two runny lines, two good lines, and then several broken jagged lines until I go back and start to re-thin again. I've tried varying degrees of thinning, but the paint just thickens too quickly.

I thought it may be too hot and that was causing the paint to dry too fast, but I've had the AC going the last two times with no luck. Can someone clue me in to what I'm doing wrong?

[squid713]

Hey Matt, i found the one shot reducer works well but i only add a few drops, if your putting that much mineral spirits that the paint goes transparent your putting in way to much, a rough guide that most of us go by is your paint sholud be about the cosistancy of warm maple syrup. But extreme temperatures can really throw u out too where do you live, im on the Gold Coast in Australia so its pretty warm here most of the year so i mainly use the high temp one shot reducer and have great results. Hope this was of some help.

[purplemyth]

Yeah if it's over 75-80*, use the high temp reducer.
I've heard a few folks mention using Penetrol, just a drop or two in your cup, suppose to slow the drying time, help with flow, but I personally have not tried it.

It's just a matter of keep at it.

[flat screwd]

What I have noticed is that most strippers better than me "thats just about everybody" pallet the brush in a small cup that has very little to no reducer at all. I found that if I pallet on a mag or something flat the paint drys to quickly . If you brush get stiff than dip it in a cup of reducer ,loosen it up than re pallet.

[Smi7th]

I'm using one-shot and a Kafka brush, which I love. Much easier than the mack, but I've run into a problem. I can't seem to get the paint to cooperate.

I thin it using mineral spirits to the point the paint is transparent and runs just trying to get it to flow, then a few seconds later the paint it so thick it won't flow off the brush. Basically I get about 20 seconds of too thin, 20 seconds of decent, and then it's too thick. It is really hard to learn when I get two runny lines, two good lines, and then several broken jagged lines until I go back and start to re-thin again. I've tried varying degrees of thinning, but the paint just thickens too quickly.

I thought it may be too hot and that was causing the paint to dry too fast, but I've had the AC going the last two times with no luck. Can someone clue me in to what I'm doing wrong?

Let's start off at the beginning:

You didn't say what the ambient temperature is where you are located but I am assuming it is relatively warm if you are running an air conditioner.Warm temperatures will accelerate drying time;especially if you are using mineral spirits. I would recommend getting some 1-Shot High Temperature Reducer or if not some odorless mineral spirits.

Next:You state that the a/c doesn't help.Are you letting the a/c blow directly at the work? Any type of breeze;whether it be warm or cold will accelerate drying time.Even more so than direct sunlight.Try working in an area that the a/c doesn't blow directly on.

As for the transparency in the paint:DEFINITELY over-reduced.Try paletting the brush with a mix of reducer and paint so that the brush barely drags through the mix and adjust up or down to suit you.

Is the Kafka brush a striper or a scroll brush? I have a scroller and I find that although they will pull decent lines they don't hold a whole lot of paint.You may be trying to pull too long a line with the brush. If I am doing designs,I re-palette the brush frequently to keep the paint consistency correct.On straight lines,I use a large(an old Mack #3 or #4)brush and reduce more.Doing this will allow me to pull a line the length of the car(about 17 ft.)without re-loading the brush.Lately I've been using a #3 to do just about all my striping.These brushes are about 75 years old(from an old sign kit I acquired)and are absolutely fantastic.

[madmatt54]

Thanks, I ordered some high temp reducer and am going to give that a shot when it gets here.

Just for clarity:

I didn't mean to sound like I was trying to thin the paint until it was clear, I was just trying to show how frustrated I had gotten. I got aggravated with it and said to heck with it, lets see what it takes to get it to flow. I can be slow at times, but not that slow.

I'm in Texas, and it has been approaching 110 here every day for over a month. The AC blows across the front of the room, and I paint in the back so no direct breeze on the work. It is probably still at least 80 in the room though. That may have something to do with it.

I am using the scroll brush now, but I have a set of macks that did the same thing.

I am paletting on a magazine. I've been doing some long lines just to practice, but here lately I've been trying to actually create something on 6" x 6" pieces of aluminum that I have, so I don't think I'm pulling lines that are running the brush dry.

When I first put the paint on the magazine to palette my brush, it works good and draws like you said, with very little resistance. After about a 5" stroke, the paint won't flow off the brush and when I go back to the paint to try and re palette, it almost drags the magazine off the table. I'm thinking at this point it just has to be the heat.

[purplemyth]

In those temps? yeah that paint will tack up extremely quick.

When I striped the front of my bus, it was 95-100 one day, higher the next. I would pallet, then dip brush in reducer, then repallet. It was a constant battle.
At 80* in the house, that should be ok, that's what my house is set at and I paint alot in the house.
The high temp reducer will help though.
After you get used to it in lower temps, then increase to higher. But there is always a point it's better to just wait.
Using a scroller is different than the swords, a bit thinner paint is needed but it's still a trial and error thing.
You'll get it, just keep at it.

And get something bigger to practice on. Picture frames are cheap at the dollar store, scrape the glass off and reuse.. If you are doing scrolls, I found it easier to start out large and work my way to small, so you need some room.

[madmatt54]

Still waiting on the high temp to get here, but I went to Hobby Lobby today and they had their craft mirrors 50% off, so I got a few of those to practice on. Now I have a bigger surface to use.

I spent two hours today trying to create something decent and have come to the conclusion that I suck. I'm getting better at telling when and how to thin, but I still need some work on that. I'm having a terrible time trying to draw straight and even lines. I think I'm getting worse if that is possible. I took a picture, but I'm ashamed to even load it on the computer.

[KewlKustomPaint]

keep practicing,not everyone gets it down the at first,the more you practice lines and dagger strokes the better you will get.I bought one of thiose Strip&Wipe practice panels for $16 at www.innate.com (http://www.innate.com) some kind of plastice material that simply wipes off with reducer or thinner or you can let the design dryadmire it for a few days and then take a plastic credit card and scrape it off then wipe it with thinner and it's ready to use again.The panel is 12X16 and is a decent size for practicing

BTW when I bought my 1 shot years agao I bought the 1 shot reducer and never used anything but nd never have dying issues and i'm in sunny humid Florida

[JimmyG]

try pure distilled turpentine....it has some natural smoothing abilities toward the higher temp range.....

part of the deal with 1-Shots thinning is thinking forward to "finish gloss level" when it flashes off toward drying.....the thinning has alot to do with that, and the longevity of the paint film, albeit a mere stripe or few.....
over-thinning makes for flat holidays and paint film failure down the time line....

mineral spirits breaks the pigment mix viscousity.......

1-shot reducers have chemical additives to retard or flash off fast.....take your pick for conditions and "do your research" on the natures of your paint's composure....

it also helps to talk sweetly lovingly to your paint and your finally getting "broke in" brush caressed in either hand that works....

You will find a brushing symphony when your materials and instruments get tuned to each other.....it's a good thing that brushes don't squeek......

....

[purplemyth]

it also helps to talk sweetly lovingly to your paint and your finally getting "broke in" brush caressed in either hand that works....
:hug: love your tools, Nice! lol!


I got a question, MadMatt, you mentioned you had this problem with reg macks, swords I assume. Did you switch from dagger to scroll before getting dagger style understood? cuz I'm tellin ya, that will really confuse your hand. You need to get one style working, then switch. Scrolls and dagger are 2 different things. Ex: in dagger you have to twirl the brush between the the fingers to get a curve, but in scrolls, you do not. A scroller wants thinner paint to flow with. But a sword wants a bit thicker.

Lil tip on scrolls, for practicing, do circles. Over and over and over, when they get smooth, start making them smaller. Scroller brushes are more for free flowing designs.
I played with a sword for over a year, got a bobbo, and learned dagger work with it for 7mos, only since Jan did I get into scrolls with it and a kafka.
You can check out youtubes to see what others are doing or go to Kafka's myspace, he has a couple short vids there too.

The mirrors will help, as scrolls to start with, better to learn on a very smooth surface. Reg glass though, you could print out a design , place behind it, and practice over it.

Anyways~ just keep at it~, the thinning part is just really hard to show or describe. Best description I've heard,like squid said, warm maple syrup. For scrolls, cheap warm maple syrup!
and post pics, can't help ya if we can't see :)
keep it wet~

[madmatt54]

With the mack sword brushes, I could pull long straight even lines all day long, but I couldn't make a curve to save my life. With the scroll brush, turning curves is much easier, but I can't make a straight or even line for anything. Maybe I should just glue the two together.

Here's a trash can I did for my classroom with the mack. I did cheat though. I went back with a razor blade a cleared up a few blobby looking spots.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f174/modified41/pinstriping/Sword1.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f174/modified41/pinstriping/Sword2.jpg


Here's the first go with the scroll brush on the mirror. I was just making shapes to practice.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f174/modified41/pinstriping/scroll1.jpg


And an air cleaner lid I did this afternoon with the scroll brush.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f174/modified41/pinstriping/Scroll2.jpg

With the mack, every time I veer even slightly off of a straight course, the hairs on the brush would fan out and separate making very jagged lines. I don't know if that was a technique error, or a problem with the paint consistency.

My high temp thinner and some more paint colors should be here around Wednesday or so. I'll try the thinner when it comes in. I'm trying to do as much as I can before work starts back next week.

I appreciate all the help. I know its hard to help over the computer, but it's hard to learn as well. I've watched all the kafka videos on youtube, as well as just about anything that would come up when I typed in pinstriping (Alan Johnson is amazing). What I really need is someone to stand behind me and hit me in the head as I go. I have no idea if I'm even close to doing anything right.

[JimmyG]

Thanks for showing your progress Madmatt54.....you are doing everything close to right because you are doing it and asking help.....practice on everything you can, and those lines techniques will dawn on ya shortly....

[KewlKustomPaint]

do yourself a favor if you need to fix striping Mack has a new tool with rubber ends you can correct your striping with,I bought one and it works good I think it's called a wipe out or something like that

[purplemyth]

looking good!

What size scroller are you using?
And that's what I did with mine, just practice swirls and squiggles til you get them to stay even.

Turning a sword, it needs to stand up more than when pulling straight lines. Basically using just the tip. I had a problem doing tight turns. I finally got ticked and cut up another brush, not recommended til you have consistency.

And a cheap trick tip, those pointy erasers for pencils? (they look like lil houses?) are great for pushing paint back or cleaning up points and such. Just wipe it off after each little push back. Keep sharp by rubbing it on paper , or whatever.

I would suggest getting Wizard's basics dvd. He will show you how to get the brush to turn.
I can't view youtubes (dial up) so not sure how well the close ups are on those guys hands.

Yeah, hard over the computer and if you have no one local, vids are all you have~

keep at it, takes time~

[madmatt54]

Ok, went back with the mack 0. It was much easier to use after using the scroll brush. I think I wasn't getting up on the tip enough before, but I had to have the scroll on it's tip, so now it just feels natural with the mack.

Part of my problem is still paint consistency. I played a little today. The bottom web I did first and it came out fairly well. The one on the side, I had to keep thinning as the paint was thickening up on me, and it came out terrible.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f174/modified41/pinstriping/mack8-3-094.jpg

After that, I cleaned the brush completely out and repaletted. Then tried one more web on the last little piece of aluminum I had laying around.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f174/modified41/pinstriping/mack8-3-09.jpg

Thats the best I've ever done as far as smooth consistent lines. Now if I could just keep the paint that way without having to start over every 5 minutes I might be able to get somewhere.

I've got another question today. How do you store your brushes?I oil mine, then put plastic wrap around them to keep them clean, but the mack has been sitting a while and when I went to use it today the tip was bent in a "J" shape and I couldn't get it to straighten back out and had to pull out a new mack. I put the old one and the new one in a book so hopefully they both will be flat by tomorrow.

[JimmyG]

......{snip}....
I've got another question today. How do you store your brushes? I oil mine, then put plastic wrap around them to keep them clean, but the mack has been sitting a while and when I went to use it today the tip was bent in a "J" shape and I couldn't get it to straighten back out and had to pull out a new mack. I put the old one and the new one in a book so hopefully they both will be flat by tomorrow.
Get yourself a brush tray or rubbermaid box container where you can lay them out with plenty of brush oil included.....
If your brushes have splits or quirks from leaving them uncleaned properly, a book pressing ain't gonna help much......they may need reformatting as in re-training to hold the shape.....
....

[purplemyth]

Ditto on something to lay them flat in.
I read somewhere, I think it may have been in a Kafka thread in eastwood, to straighten out a tip on his brushes, clean them, then take a bit of vaseline, with your fingers work it into the hair, reshape to a proper point (this was on a scroller now, but I think it would work on a dagger too) use a close pin , hang brush in a jar, put n freezer, let sit for 24hrs. take out, let fully thaw then gently wipe out vaseline, rinse out completely, oil, then proper storage.

I had to try it, it worked. A friend loaned me a pr of Kafka scollers, in shipping, the tip of a #1 was kinked. 24hrs later, good as new.


Lines looking better. And yes, on scrollers you have to use more tip, they do not lay down like swords.
like this~
http://www.mackbrush.com/images/2007/quadhow.gif
When watching the vids By Steve K. look at his hand, hard to tell when using the black paints, but look at your brushes, compare to how much higher he holds his. Mostly tips , until he does a fat line for a ribbon effect. Takes practice.

While painting, when you feel the brush thickening up, dip the whole brush in clean thinner quickly , then palette til it flows again. No need to waste paint. Add a lil paint back in if it's too thin. It just takes time and practice to keep it right all the time.

Clean off a practice sheet, pick 1 element, straight, curve, whatever, pull it over and over, fill the piece with it. By the time you get to end, I bet you'll see a big difference from your first line.
It's like writing, think back to basics in elem school, over and over on straight script, THEN came cursive and you were starting over again.

Keep at it, :)

[Kafka]

I'm using one-shot and a Kafka brush, which I love. Much easier than the mack, but I've run into a problem. I can't seem to get the paint to cooperate.

I thin it using mineral spirits to the point the paint is transparent and runs just trying to get it to flow, then a few seconds later the paint it so thick it won't flow off the brush. Basically I get about 20 seconds of too thin, 20 seconds of decent, and then it's too thick. It is really hard to learn when I get two runny lines, two good lines, and then several broken jagged lines until I go back and start to re-thin again. I've tried varying degrees of thinning, but the paint just thickens too quickly.

I thought it may be too hot and that was causing the paint to dry too fast, but I've had the AC going the last two times with no luck. Can someone clue me in to what I'm doing wrong?

Ive been working in phoenix since 1978 I use ,a live pallet(smooth/glossy),and cheap mineral spirits ,with some fish-eye eliminator in the paint cup,the smooth stroke is also a gloss&flow enhancer,and makes the work more durable.I have some video on u tube and do a little palleting its also shown on both of my dvds,I think this may shed some light on your difficulty.Ireally didnt intend a commercial but it all seemed to apply.steve

[Kafka]

I now it maybe a little late,but as far as your paint being transparent. Sounds like you got a can that was manufatured after the lead was removed,but before they re introduced the one shot line. It was terrible,just would not cover. I had several cans that were returned to them for that reason. They have since fixed the problem. But there still seems to be the odd can still out there

HEY brian ! tell em about thinning with prepsol!!...steve, this is fun!!!

[purplemyth]

tell em about thinning with prepsol!!

ok, curiosity here~ *scratching head*
Tell! :D

[madmatt54]

Haven't been on in a while, I broke my arm, so no striping for me for a while.

[purplemyth]

oh wow that aint good~
Get well soon!