Paint reactions

[ABD]

Just some ponderin fun here..Wanted to run it by some of you folks that are in the know.

Friend painting this here Nova...He's painted on and off over the years, knows the ins and outs more than most....He did the body work, Epoxy primer...All was good....Then came time for this yellow...He told me the customer handed him 2 opened 1/4 full gallons of yellow...One was normal basecoat the other had no label i guess...He mixed the 2 in order to have enough......The primer and clear were the same stuff i use everyday....The only odd ingredient was the "mystery yeller"

In these pics...It has clear coat on it but sanded...3011230113

He was having a hard time getting the clear to lay down smooth...Wasn't sure if it was his equipment or just him...So we sanded his clear yesterday (above pics) and had me come up to clear it today...I used his gun and all, sprayed nice, no issues there.....But after the 1st wet coat I come back to see this.

30114


Happened in random spots all over....I've never had a reaction like that..But I don't use "mystery" paints either..hahaa....I'm thinking that yeller was an enamel maybe?....Once we saw that, we just stopped the job, no sense in moving on....The clear hardened right up, but everywhere there was a reaction it was still wet......Dunno if it'll ever harden..lol

Told him If it were me, I'd take every damn inch of that yellow off there...His epoxy primer held strong, so no issues that far down...It's that damn mystery yeller I say.

Just curious if any of you have some vibes....This job is trashed now, yeller needs to go and go buy a real basecoat (lotta work).....But we were curious what this yellers prob was...Thinking it's either a laq or enamel, sure as hell doesn't act like a normal bc/cc....Never had it happen to me, maybe it's an obvious "Yup that's what happens with Uro over Laq/enamel" ..lol

[Cowboy]

Be My Guess Dell That 1 if not both Cans of the Mystery paint got Leftover paint outa the gun Back in them , Therefore Contaminated with Some Reducers Or I would Guess Gunwash ( Cheap Laq thinner ) . Hell Could be a Mix of Anything .

But Yes its Definatlly A chemical Reaction Between Inproper Paints/ Reducers That were More then Likelly mixed in with the Mystery paint . That Bein said if It Was Laquer thinner of any type that caused it to wrinkle It very well could have effected the Epoxy Primer . To Me This Falls under the ( HERES YER SIGN ) Catagory .

Aint no way I,d Touch it without Strippin it back to bare Metal & start from Scratch . Just My thoughts . Just Amazes Me He,d even chance it though , Good way to ruin Yer Reputation before Ya even got one , IMO . CB

[redanner]

That is called cracking & checking! One of the lower coats got softened and erupted. I use to see that happen a lot when I was doing body work. The urethane acrylic enamels would do that if you recoated them fresh after 72 hours of painting. So if you had to make repairs it had to be done in 72 hours or after it truly cured. I've also seen lacquer thinner attack the finish if doing repairs down the road after it cured. I've also seen that happen because of so many paint jobs and there was to much of a film build up and cause the finish to crack & check. In either case you have to sand down to the substrate (metal or plastic to remove the blemish. It won't fill with primer or spot putty or any other product unless they've come up with a miracle cure that I've never heard of. That's what I know but things have changed!

[ABD]

Thanks for the input Robert.

This was stripped to metal before primer, so no layers of old crap in there...The Epoxy primer was well cured then sanded flat.....He said the yellow sprayed bad from the start...He had a few runs in it, no biggie, normal Urethane base drys enough to sand within an hour or so....he's done it before, tried with this and said it was like gum.

Also, say if you find a spot you didn't get enough color coverage...Normally you just blast on that color, let flash, then clear....He said once he sprayed the yellow any attempt to spray more yellow over top would cause a reaction....That's just weird...never seen a paint that reacts with itself.

The only places it reacted with the clear is where I layed it on wet...Obviously the chems in the Uro clear were to much for that yellow...Even tryed going real light for a few coats, try to build a barrier...But once ya get wet, it'd blister.

I'm wondering maybe if that yellow was a single stage (needed hardener).

[ABD]

Shoot CB, didn't see yer reply till now..haha.

I mentioned that once...Who knows how old that paint is and what was mixed with it....Good chance it was someones left over concoction...Maybe it was good basecoat at one time, just been fermenting in reducer for a year..lol

Yeah he's not a happy camper right now...Tried to help the guy out, cheapo owns the car, "here use my paint, save me $100".

I told him I'd get the dood on the phone..Say "yep it's my fault for trusting you and yer shitty paint"...But now to do it right it's gonna cost ya an extra grand to strip this thing down and redo it.


Funny I was asked to paint this car last winter...I said 4 grand without even looking at it...(knew it needed lots of work)...Of course the guy was to cheap for that...My pal landed the gig for less and now it could bite him in the ass.

[redanner]

Shoot CB, didn't see yer reply till now..haha.

I mentioned that once...Who knows how old that paint is and what was mixed with it....Good chance it was someones left over concoction...Maybe it was good basecoat at one time, just been fermenting in reducer for a year..lol

Yeah he's not a happy camper right now...Tried to help the guy out, cheapo owns the car, "here use my paint, save me $100".

I told him I'd get the dood on the phone..Say "yep it's my fault for trusting you and yer shitty paint"...But now to do it right it's gonna cost ya an extra grand to strip this thing down and redo it.


Funny I was asked to paint this car last winter...I said 4 grand without even looking at it...(knew it needed lots of work)...Of course the guy was to cheap for that...My pal landed the gig for less and now it could bite him in the ass.

I would charge more than a grand to strip that car down. You've got of sanding a head of ya! Down and then building it back up so the car don't wave at ya when it goes down the street.

[ABD]

I would charge more than a grand to strip that car down. You've got of sanding a head of ya! Down and then building it back up so the car don't wave at ya when it goes down the street.

Good point!.....He was hoping on the epoxy primer holding up...Said when he 1st had reactions, he could wipe the yellow off with reducer, primer looked perfect....So he was hoping sand the clear, wipe off the yeller and start again with new yellow on the primer.....that'd be "best case situation".

But like CB mentioned, could very well did a number on the primer....In that case think i'd just take the airplane stripper to it..lol

The owner is a cheap skate....He wont want to pay more and more than likely will blame the guy that did the work...bad situation.

[bigwater]

Sounds like it might be time for a sandblasting rig. Sometimes the job gets too big for the return... but from the looks of that coverage you could blast it off down to bare metal with regular old play sand and a 50 lb sand pot with about 120 psi on it. JimmyG could give you a better idea of exactly what you'd expect to spend for the equipment and how to set it up, but my guess is around $400 for the sand pot, $40 for the sand and another $200 for the safety equipment (assuming you already have a mongo compressor)... but you could strip that mess off of the car in a matter of a couple of hours. You want to get on it quick though. Don't let that clear get to hard or your gonna spend an extra $40 on sand.

[sharonsstudio]

EEWWWW!!!!! Looks like a mess... Good Luck.. but it does look like a total paint and primer removal to me.. like cowboy said.. don't trust the primer now.. too risky..

[FRANKTHETANK]

i think most guys are right. but you didnt use a clear that had reducer did ya? like a 4-1-1 mix type ? cause if that has reducer in it i would have done near the same thing. if not it has to be the paint.

[rcarbone]

Sure looks bad dell, its the same reaction i got on the plastik part of my bike the second time i try it and realise that the buster sold me 1 shot paint.
so my guess is that it some kind of 1 shot and neede hardner for the paint.
i still need to some how sand the damm stuff of my parts :-(((

[ABD]

Thanks for the ponderins folks..Pretty much all a guessin game, but who better to guess with right..lol

My pal has been asking around to other people that dabble in paint as well..Most of their guesses were the yeller either froze or was left over out of the gun and poured back in the container.....I still say it looks like enamel paint..lol...I've had some shitty old basecoats, but none reacted like that.

Good thinkin on the blasting, would be quick...He's trying to avoid getting into the body work...But who knows if that mystery paint might already seeped into the bondo.

Honestly can't say if the primer would be worth saving..I know epoxy is some resistant stuff..Thinking maybe sand it down to the primer, let it breathe a few days..Shoot on a new layer O'primer...If it holds all should be good I'd think.

Frank, the clear was reduced. mixed 2:1 then 10% reducer...Same mix i shoot all my clear...Hell it doesn't react with thin waterbase artwork airbrushed on, sure as hell shouldn't melt a Uro base..lol

[ARTSPRAYJ4J]

if the reaction wasnt there when your first clear was put down then it isnt the yellow basecoat ,as you sanded back the first clear then thats where the problem lays
reddener got this right its a reaction from you second clearing due to the first not being fully cured or where if any places you may have broken through the first clearcoat to basecoat

this problem is one you usualy see when trying to rectify a break through when buffing and the fresh base or clear will react with the first lot of paint


as i say if the first clear didnt react with the yellow then there was no incompatabilty problem although left in your position i would blame the paint the customer supplied just to get myself out of the sh't ,honest ,NO but personaly i woudnt have let him supply the paint in the first place

as for a yellow paint job ,unless it was a pearl i would have used single stage solid 2K not clear over base ,one its makes life easier and two you can bury any shit in solid single stage where anything landing on a light coloured base will show ,you can also buff any crap out

next time you have to reclear make sure you sand completly with say P800 avoid breaking through and then leave the job for as long as possible before reclearing so as to allow the first clear to breath out all its solvent and harden off ,at least 24 hours preferably 48 before recoating ,some clears are better than others when it comes to rework times ,some just dont like it at all ,sounds like you hit unlucky with your brand as some clears wont except recoating and can create reactions even years after being aplied

best of luck with your customer ,cheapskates never prosper LOL so even if the problem was yours i would definatly pass the buck to him ,i would not tell him exactly what happened but tell him the reaction happened imediatly upon trying to clear his paint ie he must have supplied an incompatable product

another possibilty especialy with yellow is the amount of base layed as yellow being poor in covering ability would have required plenty of base and in turn could have solvent issues that kept the clear from hardening off ,a good tip is to activate your basecoat and use a good ground coat to achieve better coverage with less material when spraying difficult colours such as yellow




Paul

[ABD]

good thoughts fellers.

Yup Oh HI, told him he could have added some cat to the mystery base and if it was enamel it still could have worked..Prob is he was under the impression both yellows were the same base and a bc/cc system...He should'nt have trusted the customer is all.....if the paint was what it was supposed to be, he coulda handled the job fine, he's done plenty.

Paul it was causing reactions from the 1st clear...he was attempting that on his own, then called me in later on....After a few reactions and repairs, He managed to get the whole thing cleared and make it hold....But the clear was horrible....We sanded it with a scotchbrite pad...Shouldn't have broken through anywhere...I layed on one tac coat (let flash) then one wet...The wet coat killed it...haha.....I thought his cured and sanded clear would make a barrier for mine..Obviously not though.

The clear I/we used, I've shot gallons of over the years...Never an issue with anything, re-coat or otherwise....I just can't see any of that being the prob....But hell, shit happens...Glad it didn't happen to me:D.....Just tryin to help this feller out, sucky situation to be in.

[Cowboy]

Yeppers Dell , Gota love Long Distance input from People that dont take the time to read the whole Thread .

I Guess I was just assumin Yer Bud Knows the difference in Smell between Basecoat , oneshot or single stage Acrylic enamels . So I,ll stick with what I said . Its contaminated Basecoat Period . , Plus If it had been frozen at anytime After being Reduced with whatever Its a whole new show . Unlike Acrylic Laquers . hehe

Point Is I,m sure He done Figgered out He Screwed up by listnin to the customer & using Questionable products . Gonna be a mess no Matter the case . Sand or Media blasting in this stage of the game Makes no sence either IMO . If it was Me I,d use 40 grit on a mudhog ( 8 inch gear driven DA ) , Strip it back to Metal & start over from scratch . Anything less is Just more of a waste a time .

He Shoulda went with Yer Estimate & it woulda been a done deal & done right & at a really fair price , IMO . But then again WTF do I know . CB

[ABD]

Agreed CB....Hell I dunno if I know the diff in smell from a enamel or Uro base...hahaa....Enamel is a bit sweeter smellin if I remember correct, I dunno.

The customer is supposed to look at it today and they decide what to do...My pal just mentioned to me he's hoping to just get payed for what he's got in it and get the damn thing out of his hair...haha...He'd like to strip it and make it right, but the owner wont pay anything close to what it should be....Who knows.....I told him he can tell the owner to send it down here and I'll do it for 6 grand now....hahahaa

[Cowboy]

The Thing is Dell , He,d be gettin a sweet deal at 6K . These Kinda guys will put more good money after bad money Cuz there so damn cheap . When It coulda saved em money in the long run ta getter done right in the first place .

Never made sence ta Me . But some things never change I recon . These days its even werse , Problly savin all His Money fer Hydraulics, sound systems & big tall Uglly ass wheels & tires . Then wunder Why they cant get there 20 grand back out of it on Craigslist , Fer a 500 dollar vehicle . Oh Well . Thats Why I wont mess withem no more . Hope it werks out fer Yer Bud . CB

[ABD]

This owner is a local garage mechanic biz guy...Kind of place where if you can't afford to take it to a pro, he'll slap a dump truck motor in for ya for 300 beans...lol.......The car is all knackered up anyway, will never be anything show worthy...I'm 100% sure he's gonna shine it up, put it in the front lawn and find some kid to pawn it off on...hahaa...That's why he wont pay for a "real" paintjob....Hell you could spray can it and he'd be fine i bet.


Just got an update from my pal....They agreed on calling it quits...The owner wont pay to make it right, my pal isn't gonna do a redo for free.....So he's getting payed for time and material, feller takes the car as is.

But get this, the Owner tells my pal "Yeah I'll just get it buffed out".....HAHAHAAA.....Yeah buff out the yellow blisters on the hood, roof and trunk..the rest of the car has one light Tac coat over red scotchbrite scratches...LOL....ahhhhhhh people are awesome!!...hahaa

[ARTSPRAYJ4J]

"He was having a hard time getting the clear to lay down smooth...Wasn't sure if it was his equipment or just him...So we sanded his clear yesterday (above pics) and had me come up to clear it today...I used his gun and all, sprayed nice, no issues there.....But after the 1st wet coat I come back to see this."

i know this is acedamic now but as i read this it led me to believe the actual reaction was on the second clear


if it was doing the same thing fist time round it was f##cked anyway

yep if it reacted first time then the base was to blame ,whatever it was it wasnt compatable with your clear

its the old story ,a little knowledge is a dangerous thing,this story is a classic with traders ,most havent a clue about cars ,paintwok mechanics or otherwise ,its nothing but arogance from ignorant people ,i no longer stand for these idiots

i do the job my way or not at all ,i dont need or want the headache of dealing with them

that piece of junk should have been sprayed with synthetic enamel or cheap 2k solid


Paul

[ABD]

Yup Paul, agreed.

He did have probs with getting his 1st clear down...He managed to get it on without reacting after a few attempts...But the clear looked something fierce..(major orange peel)...Sanded it hoping it would act as a barrier for a good couple a wet coats..But the yeller crinkled right up underneath..Maybe that 1st clear never cured right being on top of the funky yellow...Sanded nice, sat there for a few days at least.

I hope and pray i don't ever make the mistake of a mystery paint in the mix..haha....But it's handy to know what happens when.