Wrinkling paint problem

[tomcat]

Well as most of you will know I'm in the middle of spraying a Candy finish on to some bike panels for a friend. Today I got some of them ready for base coating with silver, everything has gone ok except on the plastic side panels. In a few areas I've had to feather the paint as it was damaged, these areas where then primed. The trouble now is that I keep getting wrinkling on these panels, no matter how much I flat it back or how much time I leave in between coats it keeps re appearing, its on in small patches and only where I've feathered the paint. I've had no problems with the metal parts that I've repaired primed and basecoated but I cant get these damn plastic ones to behave. Anyone any ideas olease?, its driving me nuts!!!!:angry-smiley-030:

[Whit]

On plastic,, I always use a "BullDog" adhesive promoter
under the primer coat and build from there !!!
From that point,,, Don't Break Paint !!!
If you break paint to the plastic,,, best bet is go
back to plastic again and redo from beginning !!!
It's quicker and easier than tryin to patch it !!!
Get a good base going before even thinkin about
hittin it with sandpaper,, even then,,,,,
use care to not break paint !!!
Good Luck on it !!!

[tomcat]

Cheers Whit, I have some adhesion promoter so I'll give it a go.

[redneck]

I am confuse about the phase [ break paint ] will you explain the phase for me

[Cowboy]

Redneck, He means sand thru to where it leaves an edge of any of the base coats. That will be the first place to cause the problem. Cowboy

[tomcat]

Well today I had another go at these damn plastic panels, I've painted plastic before but I've never had problems like this before. Tonight I've sanded back the offending areas to bare plastic, I've then de greased and sprayed on a thin coat of adhesion promoter. Low and behold the very bottom coat of paint has wrinkled up again!!!, so I tried again, sanded back, wiped, sprayed on a VERY thin coat and its wrinkled again!!. I'm starting to think that I'll have to strip the whole panel back to bare plastic if I cant sort this out!, at a completed loss now and I'm sick of wasting paint on it. Any ideas anyone????

Oh, just as an afterthought, I've sprayed the tank and the grab handle and had no problems at all so it aint the paint.

[bigheadpaint]

I I have had same problems in past. Wet sand the areas that look to me snake skin with 600 really well . clean surface it happens to me when i take a short cut with a cheap primer or didnn't wet sand it right

[Whit]

Just a thought,,, but,,,
after you "Degrease",,, wipe with "Alchohol",,,
then start your adhesion promoter/primer !!!
I prime on top of wet Bulldog,, but color
on top of dry primer !!!
(plastic can be funny,, not ha ha,, jus funny)
Good Luck on it !!!:partyalone:

[gphood]

[QUOTE=tomcat;19511]Well today I had another go at these damn plastic panels, I've painted plastic before but I've never had problems like this before. Tonight I've sanded back the offending areas to bare plastic, I've then de greased and sprayed on a thin coat of adhesion promoter. Low and behold the very bottom coat of paint has wrinkled up again!!!, so I tried again, sanded back, wiped, sprayed on a VERY thin coat and its wrinkled again!!. I'm starting to think that I'll have to strip the whole panel back to bare plastic if I cant sort this out!, at a completed loss now and I'm sick of wasting paint on it. Any ideas anyone????QUOTE]

Hi Tomcat

I've had this before and it's a real pain. It always seems to be silver that wrinkles up on me rather than other colours. Are you spraying the silver straight onto the adhesion promoter? This is sometimes fine but in my experience, once something starts to react then it'll carry on reacting unless you put a real barrier down. Try 2k primer over the adhesion promoter, sand it down with 800 grit *without* rubbing through and then try your silver. It's the rubbing through that's the killer. It's the edges of the various layers that become exposed that kick off the paint reaction and that's what you've experienced so far. If it's still reacting try a barrier coat under the primer first. Keep at it, you will sort it out - it just takes a bit more time and effort than you'd originally planned.

All the best

Grant

[Stang]

When it happens once I always take it all off. No sense in beatin your head in spending three days for a half hour stripper. I use PPG so I always spray DP sealer before everything. Time is money and at the price of paint ya can't afford to paint it four times. Basically, once it lifts, you'll chase it to the end anyway.

[gutsxglory]

Dude whit does the same thing in which i do. Bulldog It, You cant beat it. No sniffing it though. Pretty crazy stuff but works.

[tomcat]

This past couple of weeks I've been doing some more spraying for friends etc.. and the wrinkling problem has been showing its head(yet again). I'm now starting to wonder what's going wrong, I don't get it on every spray job, but I do get it very often. So much so that the other day I stripped my spraygun apart, cleaned it, emptied the compressor(just in case), but to no avail.

If I put too much base on too quickly, will the build up of solvent start the wrinkling?.

The other day I sprayed a rear bumper off a car for a guy at work, after a few problems I got it done and cleared. The next day I checked on it and all was ok, except for the clear which, although dry was still a bit rubbery. So I covered it up with an old curtain to stop overspray getting onto it and started on the front bumper. Came back the next day to have a look at the clear and a big patch right in the middle had all crazed and split!, right down to the base coat!. I'm pretty sure there was nothing on the cloth covering it so what went wrong?. These problems are starting to put me off, I've never experienced so many problems whilst spraying, I've not changed the way I do things, I haven't bought any new types of paint, I'm at a loss.....

[Shiva]

airline spitting oil?
and NOT from anything you did, but degrading inside?
OR, your compressor shedding oil through the rings?
if you got another airline, might switch out to see, but FIST I would check the oil level in the compressor and see what it looks like, low/dirty?

[tomcat]

The old compressor had a problem with spitting oil so it was replaced quite recently. I have a filter half way down the air line and that's clean, it was worth a thought though.

[BodyFX]

This is from one of my Dupont training books, Its about 15 yrs old but the info is still the same.

LIFTING

The existing paint film shrivels, wrinkles or swells during new finish application or drying.

CAUSE
Solvents in a newly applied product attack the previous finish causing wrinkling, raising, or puckering of the paint film due to: Recoating enamels or urethanes that are not fully cured; Exceeding maximum flash or recoat times during application; Recoating a basecoat/clearcoat finish, where existing clearcoat has insufficient film build.

REPAIR
Remove lifted areas and refinish.

PREVENTION
Check questionable finishes by rubbing a small inconspicuous area with a shop towel saturated with lacquer thinner. Finishes susceptible to lifting will soften, swell or shrivel as lacquer thinner is applied. If any of these reactions occur, the following recommendations should be considered. Do not exceed a product's maximum recoat time during or after application. Allow enamels or urethanes to thoroughly cure before recoating or attempting a repair. Avoid applying undercoats or topcoats excessively wet. Avoid the use of lacquer products over an air dried enamel finish. When insoluble material (enamel/urethane) has been applied over a soluble material (lacquer): avoid sanding through and exposing areas of the soluble material. apply two component primer surfacer and/or sealer as a barrier between the new and the old finish. When applying two component undercoats over soluble finishes, the complete panel must be coated. Use water borne undercoats to repair extremely sensitive finishes.


I would strip the parts down to the bare substrate and refininsh from there. Good luck!

[Shiva]

The old compressor had a problem with spitting oil so it was replaced quite recently. I have a filter half way down the air line and that's clean, it was worth a thought though.

then your airline, assuming its the same now as before can be contaminated as well, no matter the filter. doesnt take much to get through to contaminate the air IMO.
We are told in furniture work that we need 2 SEPARATE airlines for tools-1 to supply air to the sanders and such, due to the inline oilers, and the other to ONLY supply air to the spray gun, and a line that is used on an oiler required tool should never be4 used afterwards on a spay gun supply line.

I have 2 filters on my big shop compressor, 1 at the tank, and 1 about 40 feet away in the line.

[Cowboy]

Hey TC, Not sure on the bumper problem, Did You prep it, prime & base it then clear. Or just base & clear, Kinda sounds like a reaction to Armorall to Me. when paint fades on them rubber or plastic bumbers I,ve seen people use that crap & its damn near impossible to remove completely, it would also explain Yer clear not curing properly. Just a thought. It May very well have nuthin to do with What YOUR doing right or wrong . Good luck.

[tomcat]

Thanks for all the tips, I don't think it's a problem with something on the bumper as I've had this problem on numerous things I've painted recently. I'm going out tomorrow to buy a new airline as I must admit its something I never gave a second thought too. I took the inline filter apart today and cleaned it out with thinners, and low and behold that was full of oil!!.

[tomcat]

Had another thought today and it's probably a very bad habbit of mine.

Once the base coat is mixed with the correct thinners, how long after mixing is it safe to still use the paint?. I've been keeping any premixed paint(albeit covered up) for a couple of days and then re using it to save on costs. Is this ok or am I just creating more problems for myself?.

[Cowboy]

Thats Yer problem I would guess. TC . Allthough I aint never tried it. Yer just asking for problems. Windows are windows. And as far as I know. They open when activated As in Thinners, basemakers. Or what have Ya. If Yer talkin uro, bases. Especially Duponts Chromabase. Ya gotta use it when Mixed. others brands may be different I,m just talking from My experience.

[tomcat]

Well......Hopefully......it's sorted.


Been out today and spent a small fortune at the paint supplies store, bought a new hose and another top feed gun. Once I took the old hose off I noticed that the end nearest the compressor was just chocked up with loads of old compressor oil/water, although I had an inline filter after this it certainly wouldnt have helped any would it?. I've sprayed three panels so far and had no problems at all(phew), it's amazing how much more you can get done when your not having to constantly go back and make repairs.

A big thanks too all for the helpfully advice, should mean that I'll actually get to see something of my family this week rather than lurking in the garage all night shouting obcenities when things go wrong!.

[tomcat]

Well......Hopefully......it's sorted.


Been out today and spent a small fortune at the paint supplies store, bought a new hose and another top feed gun. Once I took the old hose off I noticed that the end nearest the compressor was just choked up with loads of old compressor oil/water, although I had an inline filter after this it certainly wouldnt have helped any would it?. I've sprayed three panels so far and had no problems at all(phew), it's amazing how much more you can get done when your not having to constantly go back and make repairs.

A big thanks too all for the helpfully advice, should mean that I'll actually get to see something of my family this week rather than lurking in the garage all night shouting obcenities when things go wrong!.