Wasting time and money with Auto Airs paints.. yes, again!

[Carlos]

I've wasted a whole day just trying to shoot some AA base sealer! What a waste of fuckin money this stuff is... it's so inconsistant, and it's marketed as a base sealer with permanent adhesion over nearly all substrates.. so why the fuck can I not even get it to stick to regular 2k high build primer?

job is a bike frame, carbon fibre with alloy cast drop outs, here in 2k white primer

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g37/carlos2006_01/bpstealth1.jpg

colour is to be pearl white. I tried white high build but found it did not hide the older layers of feathered paints, so when I painted the forks last week, I shot a mid grey then white AA sealer, then top coat, then cleared it. Came out awesome, no problems

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g37/carlos2006_01/mikeyGforks.jpg

so today I go back to the frame and after dry sanding with 800, I shoot some grey AA sealer to hide the see through bits.

Lost adhesion totally in various locations, mostly on raised edges. this was tape lift as you can see

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g37/carlos2006_01/DSCN1099.jpg

this looks like I sanded it, but it's tape lift

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g37/carlos2006_01/DSCN1097.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g37/carlos2006_01/DSCN1098.jpg

I finally got some success around the bottom bracket hole, by a process of painting, sanding off, cleaning, painting, sanding off, etc etc, and eventually it decided to stick. Resorted to sanding with a red scotchlite but it still wont stick! Just cant understand it.. same paint, same process as carried out the other day; new paints just bought a few weeks ago, and they've never frozen. Got a dehumidifier running and the shop is dry enough. If you cant get adhesion to 2k primer, then what the fuck is this stuff good for? I've wasted a whole day, a lot of expensive paint, not to mention my patience is at boiling point! There's more paint coating the shop than I've managed to get to stick to this damn job... how the fuck can I have the confidence in the finish when the guy has this back and starts bolting the components back onto it???

I think by tomorrow, I'll have had to sand it all off and start again, with just the 2k and no AA. I'll have to see if the AA pearl white will stick OK to the 2K. It should do if I spray it on like a dry dust, to give it a lot of tooth.

fuckin' one angry Carlos tonight

[Mcleod]

Carlos,

Sounds like you are having a similar problem to what I used to have, except mine was related to delamination post clear coat. You certainly have more patience that me though, I gave up on AutoAir because I could not solve this problem and Autoair themselves could not sort the problem for me. From memory, below is what I learnt, I hope it helps. Sorry if I am telling you stuff you already know.

- AA Sealer is really tricky. I ended up building coverage through 5 layers and drying well between each layer. Even then I couldnt sort my problem. I modified a hair dryer to blow on maximum airflow but minimum heat. I tried a heat gun, however, that skinned over the paint and created even more issues.
- I gave up on the sealer and ended up using plain old white (Auto-Bourne) as my basecoat. For my delamination issue this gave much better results.
- I had endless trouble trying to get it to stick to primers, whether they were 1k or 2k and regardless of the sanding or cleaning method. I ended up not using a primer. This wasnt a problem for me though cause I paint plastic exclusively. I could not get sealer or color to adhere to the primer once clearcoated and tested.
- Never use a tak rag.
- Never sand between coats
- Be ruthless with your cleaning

After about 6 months of testing I could not solve the problem so moved on to another paint. I figured similar to what you expressed, was it worth the effort given the time and money I wasted and worst of all, how could I send a product to someone they have paid me money for and not have confidence it would hold up. I wouldn't be able to do that to someone and couldnt sort my problem so moved on.

I'll check my notes when I get home tonight and put up anything else that comes to mind.

Angus

[AndyW]

Hmm Carlos, out of interest did you make the grey from adding the dark to the white.

Know you will have issues with anything that is raised or curved due to the paint etc being thinner as you move over it, why you have to be carefull on clearing when it comes to cut and buff, edges become naturally thinner.

AA sealer I use, as said above, over thin coats but not over a 600 grit max, I do heat set between layers and let it cool before the next. Then spot test with tape for lift lol..........have more issues myself of getting them to spray nice rather than anything else.

[Carlos]

Angus

cheers for replying.. very interesting to hear of your similar problems.. although I have to reply that I've exclusively worked on plastics over the last few years, but have progressed my service.. I did have major issues with AA base on plastic and tape lift, and I do the same as ABD: scuff the sh** out of it first with 80 or 120 grit, then I use a 1k bumper/fender plastic primer to key it, then AA sealer. Never had delamination by that process and I never bother using an adhesion promoter..

Andy- yes mate, I tinted the AA sealer white with a spot of black, but according to AA, they are fully tintable which is the recommended process to give full hide and use less top coat, and also is the way you have to apply for certain effect colours, or you wont get the full colour.. so I dont personally think that is the problem; the problem is the paint itself. AA sealers are supposed to go on in fairly dry coats, so you build up a good grip coat for top coats to mechanically bond with, as there is no chemical bond. So you have to scuff any substrate or base primer with at least 400-600 grit to key for the AA to stick. It is by definition, as surface preparation. If you examine the surface once dry, you will see a very rough finish, made up of course pigment; you will never get it to spray like a regular primer, as the pigment is course. They do advise that scuffing it once dry for a smoother finish is permissable, but again you have to leave a key for the top coat, otherwise it will lift off.

Film thickness over curves/edges makes no difference, as long as there is enough roughness to provide a key, then it should adhere.. as can be seen, there is plenty of the white 2k underneath. I've examined the 2k where I sanded it, and I think this could be the problem, the pigment is very fine, so it sand very smooth.. even with a 320 or so grit, there is smoothness between the scuff scratches, and because your grit is big, there are a lot of gaps between those scratches, so there are flat areas where the AA wont stick properly.

As said, I've had hit and miss with this paint, and can be seen here on this same job.. but I cant remember if I scuffed the 2k primer on the forks before shooting the AA; I must have done, to get it nice and tidy..

I did give up last night after trying again, but only to find it pulled off in the same places.. so I gave up with it, and its now got a solid coating of grey 2k primer.. took me all day pissing about what should have taken me 1 hour. Possibly the only thing I can think of is to find a courser 2k primer, or to shoot the 2k very dry, so it gives a gritty sand paper like finish, which the AA would like. Oh, I have also had a lot of trouble in the past with AA sticking over bondo auto 2 part fillers.. tape lift, again, because it sands down too smooth to provide enough key, even if you use a course grit, it leaves smooth gaps. I think it is down to the pigment and molecular structure of what you are trying to aply AA to.. too fine, even when scuffed and it wont stick to it. One last thing to add was that I added a spot or two of reduccer 4011, but I really dont know for sure if thinning it would affect adhesion, or whether its best to shoot it neat, suffice to say that AA recommend thinning it 9:1 for guns and much more for AB application. Oh, and yesterday, I tried both a cold air fan to dry, and a low heat hairdryer, but neither method made any difference..

So, hopefully by the end of today, I'll have sanded the grey, shot some white primer and top coat ready for clearing....

you know, people used to say AA paints were for hobby painters, but sometimes its not even fit to be called that. I'd love to get someone from AA on here to give some input, but of course, they wont. Still, the value of this forum is to pass on your findings for the value of others, hopefully they wont have the same troubles and stress.

[Carlos]

ok, taken another look at this, this morning on fresh eyes..

it appears to me that it's critical that you lay on the primer base really gritty.. any sheen on the surface, and AA wont stick to it. I primed it in 2k last night, and this time I've left it really rough.. almost like it was sprayed on dry, so its like sand paper. The problem is when you get an edge, you get paint build up, therefore a smoother finish... you want texture!

I've carefully nipped over the primer with some course paper, just to remove any nibs that might spoil my finish at the clear stage, but the aim is NOT to smooth out the primer.... it must be left rough. Im in the process of shooting AA base white, and so far, it appears to be withstanding the tape test, but I've still got several coats to go. I'll post again later with some pics.

[Carlos]

glad to report back that I got 100% adhesion, following the repaint at the 2k primer stage.. so it appears that I was right: AA is sensitive to the substrate, so in future, i'll be paying a lot of attention to he way I prep for it. The golden rule IMHO is to put the primer on very grainy, like a dry coat, very fine so it looks like rough wet/dry paper. It will stick like glue, guaranteed. Any smoothness or sheen if the paint builds up too much applied 'wet' and you are looking at adhesion issues. Even if you try sanding it, its no guarantee that it will stick, for the reason I posted already.. shoot your primer, nice, fine roughness, then put your base sealer on. If it then looks a bit too rough, you can lightly dry sand the AA with about 800 grit, and then either just a fine coat of sealer, or go straight in with your top coat colour.

[AndyW]

Glad you found a solution Carlos, must admit think I said before, over fillers, I hit with around 80 grit, but I prime before using the AA sealer, have never tried it straight over filler, but as you said as well, one of the things you have to consider is weight issues.

[Mcleod]

Carlos,

Glad to see you have it sorted. Even though there is tech sheet information, DVD's and all that, in my experience you need to do alot of tests yourself to get it to work correctly. It is a shame it is that way. Then you ring AutoAir themselves and they tell you something different again.

Anyway you got it sorted, for me I just ran out of patience and changed. Thanks for your interest in my issue but at this stage its a mute point given I have changed paints. I am really sceptical about AutoAir at the moment but I guess am always open to suggestions cause you should never say never. For me, my issue was related to post clearcoat. I could use a blade to lift the clear and paint, the sealer would delaminate from iteself or basecoat would clean lift. Pre clearcoat it passed every tape test I threw at it yet post clear coat it could be lifted with a blade. I tried everything but neither myself or AutoAir could sort it. In the end they said it was my problem and left it at that which is their call I guess. I tried probably 100 different samples with differing technique from sanding variations to spraying variations to adhesion promotor's, nothing would solve the problem. For me in the end it came down to two things, the reliance on mechanical bond and the lack of overall system. I would put it to anyone that uses this stuff that they may have the same problem, but then again, like I said, I am really sceptical about this paint at the moment.

For the mechanical bond I ended up rationalising that the paint / clear bond was greater than any mechanical bond which could be created to the substrate. When it was lifted it was just physics, the weakest link will fail. For most applications this probably isnt an issue, but for me, I paint fishing lures where I know over time the topcoat will be penetrated and could potentially be lifted. I am also thinking about painting some bikes aswell and to me the same issue exists, would hate for sometime to stack it and then find their paint job not only scratched, but they could then lift it aswell.

For the overall system, AutoAir could not offer anything bar the paint. Its all trial and error. In the end I decided a system approach was best so for me that meant a paint manufacturer who could supply primer through to clearcoat and tell me how their product's interlink with each other. I know it is not that simple, but certainly an improvement. It took me under a week and problem solved with new paint.

Anyway, nuff said. Glad you got it sorted and hopefully no more issues for you.

Angus

[Carlos]

Glad you found a solution Carlos, must admit think I said before, over fillers, I hit with around 80 grit, but I prime before using the AA sealer, have never tried it straight over filler, but as you said as well, one of the things you have to consider is weight issues.yip, I have to watch how much paint I throw on these, but also the cleaner you keep your paint job, the better the finish I always think.. or you can just tell that there's a bucket load of paint thrown at a problem LOL

one thing I've noticed when I've primed with rattle can 1k, is that it atomizes very fine, so you get that gritty texture I'm talking about.. it's important for a newbiw like me to get my head around the paint used, and gun set up/application. It might be that I am using a HVLP gun at low pressure, so a higher pressure might atomise the heavy primer pigment better? Or could just need thinning out a bit more.. needs to be tested.

The problem I have with these cycle frames, is the complexity of the shape, with all it's edges and complex curves, so it's hard to apply paint in an even layer. I got 100% adhesion on the flat areas, but it lost it on the curves as you have seen on the piccies... had I worked on a flat vehicle panel, it probably wouldn't have been an issue. he shape also means that I cannot hit it with a course grit to try and key it because I'll sand straight through on these tricky high spots, so it comes back to the way I apply the primer in the first place..

Another thing worth thinking about is the use of a gloss primer instead of matt, so that if you like to flat before applying top coats, you can see if there's any gloss left; same principle you should apply to prepping plastics, and that always works for me.

[Carlos]

Carlos,

Glad to see you have it sorted. Even though there is tech sheet information, DVD's and all that, in my experience you need to do alot of tests yourself to get it to work correctly. It is a shame it is that way. Then you ring AutoAir themselves and they tell you something different again.

Anyway you got it sorted, for me I just ran out of patience and changed. Thanks for your interest in my issue but at this stage its a mute point given I have changed paints. I am really sceptical about AutoAir at the moment but I guess am always open to suggestions cause you should never say never. For me, my issue was related to post clearcoat. I could use a blade to lift the clear and paint, the sealer would delaminate from iteself or basecoat would clean lift. Pre clearcoat it passed every tape test I threw at it yet post clear coat it could be lifted with a blade. I tried everything but neither myself or AutoAir could sort it. In the end they said it was my problem and left it at that which is their call I guess. I tried probably 100 different samples with differing technique from sanding variations to spraying variations to adhesion promotor's, nothing would solve the problem. For me in the end it came down to two things, the reliance on mechanical bond and the lack of overall system. I would put it to anyone that uses this stuff that they may have the same problem, but then again, like I said, I am really sceptical about this paint at the moment.

For the mechanical bond I ended up rationalising that the paint / clear bond was greater than any mechanical bond which could be created to the substrate. When it was lifted it was just physics, the weakest link will fail. For most applications this probably isnt an issue, but for me, I paint fishing lures where I know over time the topcoat will be penetrated and could potentially be lifted. I am also thinking about painting some bikes aswell and to me the same issue exists, would hate for sometime to stack it and then find their paint job not only scratched, but they could then lift it aswell.

For the overall system, AutoAir could not offer anything bar the paint. Its all trial and error. In the end I decided a system approach was best so for me that meant a paint manufacturer who could supply primer through to clearcoat and tell me how their product's interlink with each other. I know it is not that simple, but certainly an improvement. It took me under a week and problem solved with new paint.

Anyway, nuff said. Glad you got it sorted and hopefully no more issues for you.

Angusnot at all mate; post away to your hearts content... it's all stimulating and thought provoking which is what we need to help solve our problems.

I find your problem very interesting. You are right about the weaker bond to the substrate, but again it could be down to surface prep. Clearcoat bonds stronger with AA top coat, and I've read peoples' comments that it melts into the top colours like a chemcal bond, but it is certainly not a chemical bond. I think it is down to the molecular structure of the AA, that it has pores that the clear bonds into. I've painted a substrate that was primed then AA sealer, then top colour, then cleared. I had a problem with breathable pores in the substrate that trapped air, so when it heated up, the air pockets expanded, and caused a delamination between the primer and the AA sealer! It lifted right off, in the same way as you would use a hot air gun to burn old paint off a wooden door frame.. I have also stripped AA sealer and it's top coat/clearcoat off a primed substrate in one piece, with a stanley knife paint scraper tool; it came off in a sheet, like a sheet of vinyl..

anyway... moving on, hopefully this thread will help others think about how they proceed; for me, Im not sure whether to stick (see what I did there?) with it or try something else.. I guess I'll see how this job pans out.. but I have painted other items of my own and they've held out a few years and still look good.

[Carlos]

here's the frame in pearl white, ready for clearing

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g37/carlos2006_01/mikeygframe1.jpg

I've tried to take some close ups to show the texture I've got at this stage, but it's provoing a bit hard..

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g37/carlos2006_01/mikeygframe2.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g37/carlos2006_01/mikeygframe3.jpg

Doesn't look too bad, but I'd still like it to be ultra smooth so the clear goes on nice, with less final prep needed not to mention less thickness, but I think this is the trade off with AA, and I need a bit of clear to bury the metalic finish; customer has allowed me to put some simple graphics on it so Im having a think today. Very difficult shape to work with though..

[Mcleod]

not at all mate; post away to your hearts content... it's all stimulating and thought provoking which is what we need to help solve our problems.

I find your problem very interesting. You are right about the weaker bond to the substrate, but again it could be down to surface prep. Clearcoat bonds stronger with AA top coat, and I've read peoples' comments that it melts into the top colours like a chemcal bond, but it is certainly not a chemical bond. I think it is down to the molecular structure of the AA, that it has pores that the clear bonds into. I've painted a substrate that was primed then AA sealer, then top colour, then cleared. I had a problem with breathable pores in the substrate that trapped air, so when it heated up, the air pockets expanded, and caused a delamination between the primer and the AA sealer! It lifted right off, in the same way as you would use a hot air gun to burn old paint off a wooden door frame.. I have also stripped AA sealer and it's top coat/clearcoat off a primed substrate in one piece, with a stanley knife paint scraper tool; it came off in a sheet, like a sheet of vinyl..

anyway... moving on, hopefully this thread will help others think about how they proceed; for me, Im not sure whether to stick (see what I did there?) with it or try something else.. I guess I'll see how this job pans out.. but I have painted other items of my own and they've held out a few years and still look good.

Carlos,

Very true regards the history, that's one of the benefits of these sites.

As for the pun, lovely work, only thing I can offer is regards the change is from my personal experience, at this stage all is going well so hopefully thumbs up. It is good to be painting again and not testing and cursing.

Angus

[Carlos]

what clear was you using at the time? I'm trying an acrylic clear.. its quite soft, made to absorb stone chips.. but that means it always seems to mark if you handle it due to the softness Its a bit like one of those kiddies rubber bouncy balls, only a little harder. You can leave a pressure finger mark for instance, but it kind of self heals.. levels back out. I wonder if I used a harder clear that was quite brittle, it would result in the flaking that you had? Just a thought!

[sharonsstudio]

First of all the bike came out looking Good.. second I only use AA for artwork after the basecoat is on.. I'm one for not trusting AA for a base.. so I use primer, then uro,,clear, then let set for 2 days then sand where my artwork will be, do my artwork then clear again.. I find AA are not strong enough for anything but,,, JMO... I guess it's all what you get use to..

Good Thread though I think it helps the Newbies solve some problems,

[Mcleod]

what clear was you using at the time? I'm trying an acrylic clear.. its quite soft, made to absorb stone chips.. but that means it always seems to mark if you handle it due to the softness Its a bit like one of those kiddies rubber bouncy balls, only a little harder. You can leave a pressure finger mark for instance, but it kind of self heals.. levels back out. I wonder if I used a harder clear that was quite brittle, it would result in the flaking that you had? Just a thought!

Carlos,

I use Dupont ChromaClear but this is by no means a done deal. As for the softer clear, not really suitable for my application, but it is an interesting questions none the less. I must be honest though, I did think about it, however, I was at the point where I just wasnt prepared to throw any more money at the problem.

Sharon,

Intesting point which I would definately agree with.

Regards,

Angus

[ABD]

I pretty much do the same method as Sharon...Just don't trust waterbase as a "base" I only use it for art...That and you need the sealer and such with AA...Hell painting's complicated enough..lol...Good 2 part primer, sand when cured and base with a Uro..no worries..lol....I know everyone can't or doesn't want to play with uros if they can help it...So the situation deff dictates the application....That's juts the way I fly.haha...Glad ya got it sorted though, came out nice!

[Carlos]

I think for jobs like this I might switch to uros as AndyW has pointed me in a direction of a new range of AB uros available in the UK. I'll stick to AAs I think for more detailed AB stuff like I've shown in other threads.. interestingly the work I do on the highly flexible plastic cycle helmets has held out really well.. no problems whatsoever. Again, I think the use of a flexi acrylic clear possibly helps a lot.

thanks for te input.. hopefully shooting clear on this soon. Im gonna have to shoot a couple of coats then sand it back then shoot again to get a nice even finish.. man, the shape, its gonna be hard LOL Lot of work!

[Mcleod]

I look forward to seeing it cleared, should look great.

Angus

[ABD]

Carlos, have you tried using a regular clear on such things?...I know you said you use the softer stuff....I only use the "hard" stuff..lol..But have cleared many a flexible part..It doesn't crack unless the part is damn near bent in half..Takes a lot of abuse....Most things I've seen you do seem to be pretty ridged.

Doesn't have that "self healing" aspect to it, But not sure folks would even notice the difference..Most folks expect scratches and such when a rock bounces off it..lol..Might be easier to work with on your part...Just a thought.

[Carlos]

Carlos, have you tried using a regular clear on such things?...I know you said you use the softer stuff....I only use the "hard" stuff..lol..But have cleared many a flexible part..It doesn't crack unless the part is damn near bent in half..Takes a lot of abuse....Most things I've seen you do seem to be pretty ridged.

Doesn't have that "self healing" aspect to it, But not sure folks would even notice the difference..Most folks expect scratches and such when a rock bounces off it..lol..Might be easier to work with on your part...Just a thought.yeah worth thinking about... but I've got a bucket of this expensive stuff here LOL.. oh, and Im hoping to do a day course on clearcoating, hosted at the paint suppliers, and in co-operation with the manufacturers, so I want to glean as much knowledge from that as I can. For the plastic helmets I used the acrylic MS clear because it is approved for plastic substrates.. I wanted back up in case someone had an accident and was injured or even killed, with some lawyer trying to point a finger at me because I sprayed his helmet and this compromised its integrity, thus contributed to their brain damage or something like that!

Anyways, it's not so much the clear that's the problem itself; it's applying it nice on a shape like this... as Im a novice sprayer, but Im learning real fast, every job I do. Oh I think the other problem with regular clear is that it always cracks and flakes off on the drop outs when the wheels are tightened up.. Hopefully booking up on that course in March.

[Carlos]

I look forward to seeing it cleared, should look great.

Angushere it is

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g37/carlos2006_01/mikeygframe7.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g37/carlos2006_01/mikeygframe8.jpg

it was surprisingly easy to clear it.. I thought it was going to be tough given the shape and my lack of experience, but it went on nice.. just a question of working at one end and keeping a wet edge going.. lost it a bit here and there, but I expect I'll be spending some time polishing it up in a week or so's time. the roughness of the sealer coat knocked the pearl finish a bit; it tended to seperate the pigment out a bit, as some of the heavier part settled into the depressions, so in future I need to focus on getting the base coat really slick, with just enough texture to give the right adhesion. Doesn't appear to be any problems at all on that score, so Im pleased. I'll have to warn the owner against clamping it up when he rebuilds the bike; this is one problem I'll have to assess with this soft acrylic.. hoping t'll be OK, but bikes do get handled a lot more than vehicle bodies.. and bits get bolted onto them, and regularly removed etc..

oh, the stripes were pulled with fine line blue tape with the text cut from vinyl, placed on top. Logo on the fork was put on top of a sanded layer of clear, then recleared.. the frame graphics were put straight on the top colour, which I didn't enjoy, because it marks too easily, nd the tape doesnt stick very well. I did try putting a layer of AA transparent base on first but it didn't seem to help at all.

[AndyW]

Looking nice Carlos.....................like the subtle graphics, blends together sweetly.

[Mcleod]

That looks great Carlos. Like Andy said, the subtle graphics are a nice touch

Angus

[shadow82]

That looks nice and agree with Andy and Mcleod very nice.