a valuable lesson

[Dream Weaver]

Now that the nerves are less frayed and the 8th cup of tea is kicking in , lol , i am posting this as a tip for beginners and intermediate automotive artists. Remember these are only my opinions on a professional level and way too many years. As some of you know , i always do my art on a base of clear , never on the original base coat. I will explain why in detail. The harley commission from hell is the reason for this. This bike came to me all base coat.The colour was purple with a course metalic. Problem 1. When basecoats set up, unless you are using bases to mural most other acrylics will not bite into it. So using any type of frisk or even cleaning it before clearing you will have a mighty high risk of rubbing paint off or even lifting paint. So to avoid this , i have heard of people using a product that is a re-activator to soften the bases so paint will bite into it. Problem 2. Unless you are that good that you don't make a mistake , your good to go , BUT, if you do have to repair your art and have to either wipe or sand (god forbid) anything, you can say good by to your base coat underneath , especialy with metalics. Problem 3. So instead you decide to just scuff your nice fresh base pieces. Damn that will give you grief. There is a term in body shops , thats called shifting the metalics. When you scuff base thats is not cleared with metalic in it you are removing the colour from your silver or gold or whatever colour the metalics are. thats a no no. You could end up with blotchy base. So let me now explain all the pros to having a good coat of clear over your bases before muraling. 1. With a good coat of clear , your base is protected, that means when you wet sand or scuff your working pieces you have no fear of hurting the original paint, Just don't burn through lol. once ready you can actualy use your prefered medium , bases, acrylics . Also if you make mistakes on the clear , you can wipe it sand it scuff it with ease, also that coat of clear is a protection when moving the piece around. 2 This also saves you using another product and save you steps. And your clear coat guy will love you . Now since this harley from hell was all base, guess you figured out all the crap and grief this thing gave me, including the big bad biker lol. Lastly , lol yes i'm done rambling, and this will prove some points. I had four pieces in Mark's paint booth that i had muraled over a clear coat base, and then the other pieces of the harley from hell muraled over base. All the pieces same booth same air pressure , same clear. The pieces that where cleared before work came out like glass, the other pieces with no clear just base with murals picked up every little imperfection it could find. So in finishing , if you want to save 1 on products 2 time 3 aggravation 4 and get a good finish, try getting your work with at lease one coat of clear to start. Whewwwwwwwww ok all done lol

[colourshift]

Guy, would a coat of inner coat clear have negated all this? Or does it have to be a catalyzed clear coat to scuff and go... Did you get the parts straight from the customer (Mr.Wonderful)? or from your painter, Mark? (if so, Mark owes you, I think)

Thanks for taking the time to get into it all in detail, those of us who work in waterbased thank you. Maybe this is one mistake I can avoid because of your insight...

[Full Blast]

NOW THAT IS WHY I BELONG TO FORUMS! That is one excellent makes perfect sence (to me). Talk about learnin for others trials and tribulations! THANK YOU! really. :tee:
Rob

[moose]

Guy,
Thnaks for taking the time to share the possible horrors that await us newbes. Were you able to recover the incorrectly cleared parts?

Tim

[Marz]

Well, I've just experienced this problem first hand. It is now 8:47 pm on Sunday and I'm on the phone with Guy as I type this. I've been painting a mural on the hood of my mustang all day and the intial prep was just white basecoat with no clear. I thought I could just scuff the base and start applying my acrylics and go ahead with my mural...however, even though I thought I had scuffed it and cleaned it enough, my paint began to lift in several places when I removed frisk from a previously painted area. Now I have to sand the entire hood down to have it cleared so I can then wet sand the clear and continue on. PREP IS EVERYTHING. Hope your night goes better than mine.
Peace
WILL

[Dream Weaver]

hey Tim. sadly it was too late to go back and clear everything to start again. So it was all get it done right the first time with that friggen re-activator crap. By the way , the inner coat clear is just base with no pigment, still the same problems. Oh yes , my lungs and DUPONT re-activator really do not like each other lmao, cough cough gag gag

[Gotrek]

Hey Dream Weaver,
thanks for your advice.
I have 1 question though:
Do you nead to sand the clearcoat before you start ore use a scotch pad before you start painting? I once heard that if you don't do that the paint won't stick to the clear coat is this correct or am I making this up?

[blinddog 99]

Guy, would a coat of inner coat clear have negated all this? Or does it have to be a catalyzed clear coat to scuff and go... Did you get the parts straight from the customer (Mr.Wonderful)? or from your painter, Mark? (if so, Mark owes you, I think)

Thanks for taking the time to get into it all in detail, those of us who work in waterbased thank you. Maybe this is one mistake I can avoid because of your insight...

Lynne, depending on the colors used, Intercoat Clear is not enough. When doing a Grateful Dead logo test for my bike, I used intercoat. The blue and white simply sank right through it into the background (metallic green) and you can see the result. There were two coats of Intercoat, and it didn't help at all. I would only airbrush on actual catalyzed clear after this experience. Of course, I used uro's, but its a similar issue.

Guy, thanks a ton for the helpful information, great thread!

[colourshift]

Gotrek, Yes...you need to sand (scuff) the clear coat until there is no more shine left...I use 600-800 grit, or a red scuff pad. What you're creating then, is a mechanical bond....vs what Guy had to do (just working on base coat) which was a chemical bond (reactivator on basecoat and an utter pain in the ass).

[sharonsstudio]

I like it when I learn from others mistakes makes my life easier
thanks for the info Dreamy

[Dream Weaver]

your most welcome Sharon , my pleasure and pain lol

[Dream Weaver]

Gotrek a.s far as sanding the clear , some will use 600 to 800 like Lynne does aka colourshift. Myself before painting i will use no higher then 600. The reason is , that higher numbers like 800 to 1000 , even though gives you a nice surface , may give you bonding problems with frisk film. And as my buddy Will found out ....a red scratch pad works well , if you have no orange peel or clear defects to deal with. Hope this all helps. Oh and yes, after you scuff or sand , a good precleaner is a must also.

[jason prouty]

Guy, thanks for giving the advise. Stories like this give us all the experience without the strife, and for you to share is mighty nice. It's funny that deadlines and customers we don't like will make us do things we know we shouldn't. I always learn the hard way and when i'm really busy it seems i learn it again.

I've had some issues with shops bringing me projects based only, but after some stuff like you metioned, I tell them how i want it, and i make them sand it. Usually 800 or 1000, i don't use frisket, so i have no lift problems, all my mask is low tack, i don't like 600 cuz the paint will drift across the sand scratches and catch in them.

[Gotrek]

Thanks Dream weaver and Colourshift,

To be honest I still don't have a real surface cleaner, but I know I need one.
Thanks for the sanding tip causse I always learned the higher the better (I usualy use 800 or preferably 1000) but then again I don't use frisk film at all.

I'm working on a wood grain effect now (first try) so that's allmost all freehand aswell, I'll post some images when I'm done.