a laq question for the old-timers

[draggin81]

I'm going to be doing some artwork on some old guitars, and I plan on using a nitro-cellulose laquer as a clear coat, since thats mostly what they used "back in the day", and I know it will be compatable with the original finish.
Since I'm a young buck, and I've only sprayed urethane clears, I'm hoping some of you can help me out with some tips on spraying laqs.
Any info is helpful, since I know literally nothing about the differences in sprays laquer and spraying uro's. I'm assuming that the health precautions are essentially the same (wear a respirator, cover skin, ventilate area, etc) but beyond that, nada. LOL.
Thanks in advance.

Oh, and I didn't mean to call you old, I meant really, really expirienced :rotflmao:

[Cowboy]

Well Drag, Been Years since I painted NC laqs, But If Memory serves it not that much different from the Regular laqs , Spray wise. The Main thing is the reduction is nuthing like Yer Used to. I,d start with 10 to 1 ( 1 being the clear ) & work Yer way in either direction thats needed. To Thick Yer shootin cotton Candy . To thin. Yer just wasting reducer, But do some testing first the reducer can eat away paints Or plastics very quick. So Make Sure ya know what Yer painting on.

As far as Health Issues, Keep away from Sparks or open flame, I Would suggest a good mask, But I never wore one. Thats My stupidity. Forget the Rubber gloves You,ll melt them to Yer hands. The fumes are very volitile, But not near as dangerous as the Iso,s in the Uro,s these days. So just use good judgement.

Biggest Warning I can give Ya, Is You,ll never want ta use anything else if You can find it. I have no clue Why They ever quit making or selling it other than a money thing. Hope this Helps a lil. & good luck.

[Whit]

What CB said,,, can't add much !!!
I remember once sprayin in an open shop,,,
welder was on the other end of the building,,,
heard a holler,, looked up,, a ball of fire was
rollin right towards me,,, about two ft off the
floor,,, I ducked in time,, but it did curl my hair !!!
BTW,,, don't use gunwash laq thinner,,, get
some good med reducer,, with mabye some
retarder just in case you've got some humidity
within a hundred miles,,, (jokein about the mileage)
but the retarder can pull ya outta a crack sometimes !!!
Good Luck on it,,, post your results,,, been awhile on
laq,,, some good sprayin with laquers,,, real good !!!
We used to add a touch of "Castor Oil" for flex,,
the flex worked great on fiberglass !!!
Ohhh,,, tha memories !!!

[redanner]

What paint gun are you using to spray the clear? You are surely not using an airbrush for the final top coat. If you are using production paint gun 2 parts thinner to 1 part clear @ 45 pounds of pressure at the gun. You should put on 6 coats allowing the clear to flash between coats! I would let dry 48 hours before color sanding and or rubbing it out with compound. What happens when coloring sanding and rubbing to soon is the finish will finish drying and the finish will be dull and need to be buffed again. If you want to put on thinner coats just reduce the paint 3 to 1 or 4 to 1 and put on more coats. If you don't get it on wet enough or have it under reduced or not enough air pressure you will end up with orange peel. CB warned about lacquer thinner attacking plastics and incompatible finishes!! Well it will do that in a heart beat so if wrinkles, lifts, cracks, or crazes you have strip it. Cracks and crazing are usually caused by paint film build up. Also blushing can occur if the air is humid!

[Cowboy]

Its Been awhile, Granted Red. But I still Use laq clear now. Just not the NC type . But 2 ta 1 Mix , I gotta disagree unless Yer tryin ta get some serious cobwebbing effect, Granted its just My opinion. But Thats Way to thick for Laqs. No wunder Yer only saying 6 coats. I never put less than 30 coats on anything I wouldn,t think about Sanding or buffing till at least a 30 cure time. But I very seldom hadto anyway. Once again. Just Expressing My opinion. & I been spraying it since I was a pup. Sorry No offence Meant, Just trying ta Help the Guy out without causing Him more problems . Brands Might make a difference I dont Know. If so I appologise . I allways Shot Ditzler, Which I beleive is PPG, now. I now Buy Dupont .

[Whit]

Never got along with that Dupont stuff CB,,,
Ditzler and RM were my preferences,,,
shoot it heavy,,, makes a great vinyl look
for a roof,, back when they did that ,,,
also an effect known as "Cobbwebbing",,,
good lookin effect when done right !!!
I still say invest in some retarder tho !!!

[Cowboy]

I totally agree on Brands Whit. My Switching to Dupont had nuthin to do with the product. Just When PPG bought out Ditzler or They changed , My Paint Supplier became a Dupont supplier. I Get a huge Price Break, ( Plus I still do even though I,m outa the Business end of it ) So , It was a money thing on My part. Also They Carry Evercoat products which I really like. But I aint never shot a more user friendly paint, Nor Durable than the Old Ditzler product,s . & Yer right on the Retarder also, But I kept all 3 Speeds of Reducer , & Used accordingly . Had some Real Nightmares with Retarder slowing it down Waaay to much on Completes anyway . Sure miss the good Ole days.

[redanner]

Its Been awhile, Granted Red. But I still Use laq clear now. Just not the NC type . But 2 ta 1 Mix , I gotta disagree unless Yer tryin ta get some serious cobwebbing effect, Granted its just My opinion. But Thats Way to thick for Laqs. No wunder Yer only saying 6 coats. I never put less than 30 coats on anything I wouldn,t think about Sanding or buffing till at least a 30 cure time. But I very seldom hadto anyway. Once again. Just Expressing My opinion. & I been spraying it since I was a pup. Sorry No offence Meant, Just trying ta Help the Guy out without causing Him more problems . Brands Might make a difference I dont Know. If so I appologise . I allways Shot Ditzler, Which I beleive is PPG, now. I now Buy Dupont .

I always sprayed lacquer 2 parts thinner to 1 part clear @ 45 pd at the gun! Always put it on very wet and it always flowed out with little orange peel! But that was automobiles! I also used a Binks #7 production paint gun! I guess thats just the difference in painters!

[Whit]

Binks/Devilbis were good guns,,,
still tryin to get the hang of these
new vacuum cleaner (hvlp) guns !!!
Still remember the shock of seein my
first grav feed gun as well,, strange
contraption,, never fly,, (hahaha)
still prefer the syphon gun,, 'ol habits
I guess,, but,, life goes on !!!

[redanner]

Whit in the 80s I was given two gravity feed guns to try and evaluate by the paint jobber that I did business with! Good one for top coats and same brand only cheaper for primer. I didn't see any pattern or use difference other than I could not get use to the weight being on top! Thats the only reason I gave them back and didn't buy them like he was hoping for!

[Shiva]

back in the 60's heard of a car that the HS body shop did..
75 coats of lacquer primer, sanded between every 5 coats..
then base coat. 10-15 coats there, then the candy colors on top.. 8 different colors..
Did I emtion the pearl and fine metal flake? or that it was over 400 coats of primer and paint, plus the clear?
Cop gave them a ticket for having a distraction. They did the equal then of what is called Chromic Illusions today.. the car looked like it was moving, SITTING.

[draggin81]

thanks for all the info, everyone. It at least points me in the right direction. I won't be clearing for a little while yet, so I have some time to do some more research, thankfully.
I was planning on using my HVLP mini-gun with a 1.0 tip. Will a laq spray well out of that. Keep in mind I'm only doing guitars. Otherwise I have an old siphon-feed production style gun with a 2.0 tip, if I remember right.
Just to make sure here, can I put new coats of laq over the original finish on these guitars. They're mostly older (30's-60's) acoustics, so they should all have NC laqs. Just to make sure, I can take a rag with a bit of laq thinner on it and rub in an inconspicuos spot. It the finish comes off, it's laq. If it doesn't, I'm up that well-known tributary without a means of locomotion, as my old Chem teacher used to say (for some reason he said that alot when refering to me. LOL)
Also, just to double check here, I can't spray a uro over the laq, right? If I remember right I was told they don't play nice together.


Of course, just when I'm really getting the hang of shooting uro clears, I have to go and switch it all up. LOL.

[Whit]

Now,,, just because laq thinner affects the finish,,,
does'nt neccessarily mean it's laquer,,, laq thinner
affects most of the older finishes out there,,, well,,,
mabye imron can get away with it,, but,, these older
instruments were prob a laq,, or varnish !!!
Laq thinner can burn,, and bubble,, varnish,,,, and
one instrument may be a laq,, while an identical one
next to it may be a varnish,,, so you need to check
each one first so you know what you're working on !!!
Good Luck on these,, sounds like a fun project !!!
Post your finals !!!

[draggin81]

Oh, I'll definitely be posting these as I get them done. It's going to be quite a project, though. Luckily I have until February to get the guitars and a few other things done. I do have one done already, which I think I have some pics up of in my "gallery" thingy. That one is a black and white of Son House, and since I took the original finish off, compatability wasn't an issue. It just got cleared with regular old Krylon rattle can stuff.
So anyway, if it's varnish the laq thinner test spot will bubble, if it's laquer, some will rub off, but it won't bubble up or have any other reactions?

Most of the guitars I'm going to be using are old Kay's and Harmonies, which as far as I know used the laq's. They were cheap guitars in thier day, so I'm doubting they french polished them, and urethane's had yet to be invented, so they should be laq (oh God, please let them be laq. LOL)
Like you said, though, you never know with that old stuff.

Anyway, what do I do if it's a varnish? What do I top coat it with then?

[Cowboy]

Draggin that gun will work just fine, I never seen anything they wouldn,t spray through if thinned enough . The main difference You cant over thin it, But if Ya dont thin it enough, Likes allready been said It will shoot like cotton candy. which used to be used for the cobwebbing effect , Perty Kewl, Ya just add a lil color to the clear ta get different effects . But That aint what Ya asked lol.

As far as putting Uro,s over Laqs, Yes I have done it , But I dont recommend it Unless Yer using a clear designed for going over laqs, I Beleive PPG makes one now designed specificlly for that purpose . The only danger is the Adhesion otherwise Because they use 2 different bonding chemical make ups, If that makes sense, Sorry I dont know all them fancy terms like most. You DONOT want ta put Laqs over uro,s though. It,ll eatem up . Like Whit Said, Imron is the only thing I can think of that laq thinner wont touch .

As far as finishing over Varnish, I cant help Ya there, Never had any experience other than furniture & I allways stripped it to bare wood anyway. Then either stained Or painted with Laqs just like I would automotive. Good luck, lookin forward ta seeing what Ya do.

[CarsonsChaos]

All I used as a kid was lags, working in various body shops.
Rats, I guess I'm an OLD TIMER.
Sucks gettin old.:sad-smiley-068:

[Shiva]

you mentioned FRENCH POLISH.. that is NOT lacquer based but alcohol and shellac.. easily stripped by MORE alcohol..