i need advice on building a sign

[Sinontin]

im thinking about taking on a sign job,,i was thinking of a 3d type thing,its for a recording studio that ill be workin in,Black Dog Recording studios,,here is a rough sketch of what i was thinkin,what materials are used ,the sign is gonna be around 8'x10' i do sheet metal fab,i also want to make the design a format that we can print from and use on the web site,so im designing the logo and building a sign,should i bring my design to a graphics guy?

[Jeroen - CDM]

Why? Looks good to me.. Ya can ab the sign so....what's the prob? For the logo on vinyl, they print that them selves.

The disign looks great! What did they say, or did'nt ya ask yet?

[Sinontin]

i want to make it actual 3 d not just airbrushed,huge exterior sign ,i want 3d block letters ,im thinking some type of foam,they like the design but im still workin on the real design which will be effected by the materials im gonna use i guess,this forum has some sign makers so i figured this would be a good place to start

[Cowboy]

Yep, Design Looks Good Tommy, I,d Say Wait a bit. Some Of the Best sign Guys are here Like Ya said. Whit , Jimmy, Ron , & Scott , are The Main Ones I can think Of, Sure They,ll Swamp Ya with info. Lookin Forward ta What They have ta say Myself.

[Jeroen - CDM]

Yeah Jimmy!! He'll know.

[Whit]

For a "3-D" type sign you're probably
looking at "Signfoam" (HDU) and very
easy/fun to work with,, finish with
whatever paints you want (enamels here)
as far as your design,,, here's a quickie
from what you posted,, hard to really tell
it was kinda small to work with,,,
also is a "file" that works with most drawing
progs for printing/plotters or whatever !!!
Good Luck on it,, keep us posted !!!

[XZOTIC INK]

i like the sign so far:sport-smiley-004:

[Whit]

Forgot to mention,,,
on that foam,,, I've got a 4'x8' sheet
here now,, to do a carved board on,,,
this stuff runs a bit over $400 for 2"
board,, you're gonna need a couple at least,,
so be prepared for the cost on this stuff !!!
15 lb works the best for the $$$,,,
go denser than that,, be sitting down when
they tell ya tha bill !!!

[JimmyG]

Yeah what Whit says on the Signfoam (HDU) for dimensional carving...
HDU stands for high density urethane foam, and comes in other brands also depending on the sign suppliers in your area.....
It can be easily carved with hand chisels and gouges or can be worked with bits on small die grinders.....
It really is fun to work with and easy to paint....

Nice job on the vector Whit.....Tommy, Whit's vector will help you get started with something to give your graphics printer....
I would also suggest that you do a small panel proof with all your airbrush work, to use to create your large sign patterns and such and to give to your graphics guy to work up computer art....

Sounds like a great job, we can help you thru the steps if you need or to look for materials suppliers for ya.....Whatever ya need.....

[redanner]

If ya did it with metal you could lay the metal on or in a sand pile and take a wooden mallet and sharp but not too sharp chisel and tap the outline of the letters to make it look raised on the other side! Of course you have to have the design done on it and also make it backwards! The sand will support the weight of the sheet metal and at the same time give way to the slow process of the metal working! Just a crazy idea but it can be done because I've done it before making custom pieces for auto restoration! And if you take your time it will look nice! Then prep and paint!

[Sinontin]

For a "3-D" type sign you're probably
looking at "Signfoam" (HDU) and very
easy/fun to work with,, finish with
whatever paints you want (enamels here)
as far as your design,,, here's a quickie
from what you posted,, hard to really tell
it was kinda small to work with,,,
also is a "file" that works with most drawing
progs for printing/plotters or whatever !!!
Good Luck on it,, keep us posted !!!

i knew i came to the right place ,how did you do that to the drawing?i need a computer guy,maybe you can help me with this job,i love the foam idea,what ever it costs,that design is a quik sketch,i need help with the fonts i gues its gonna be "BlackDog Recording Studio" but that might change ill know for sure in the next couple of days,this is a paying job so if you want to work with me on this i will send you a mo for your time,i want to make the coolest sign this is going on a brand new state of the art recording studio competeing with the best in the country as far as technology,so the sign has to be insane,

[Sinontin]

Yeah what Whit says on the Signfoam (HDU) for dimensional carving...
HDU stands for high density urethane foam, and comes in other brands also depending on the sign suppliers in your area.....
It can be easily carved with hand chisels and gouges or can be worked with bits on small die grinders.....
It really is fun to work with and easy to paint....

Nice job on the vector Whit.....Tommy, Whit's vector will help you get started with something to give your graphics printer....
I would also suggest that you do a small panel proof with all your airbrush work, to use to create your large sign patterns and such and to give to your graphics guy to work up computer art....

Sounds like a great job, we can help you thru the steps if you need or to look for materials suppliers for ya.....Whatever ya need.....
yea cool Jimmy ,if you know any suppliers in albany ny area would be great i been googlng but havnt found anything,ive never done a real sign like this ,thanks

[Sinontin]

If ya did it with metal you could lay the metal on or in a sand pile and take a wooden mallet and sharp but not too sharp chisel and tap the outline of the letters to make it look raised on the other side! Of course you have to have the design done on it and also make it backwards! The sand will support the weight of the sheet metal and at the same time give way to the slow process of the metal working! Just a crazy idea but it can be done because I've done it before making custom pieces for auto restoration! And if you take your time it will look nice! Then prep and paint!

i like workin with sheet metal but i think i want that 3 d look,the sign is going on the gable end of a board and bat building staind dark brown

[Shiva]

WHIT!!!.. I was in a sign shop about 3 miles from me once a while back and he makes 'moulded' plastic signs..

to make it simple, take the letters on the sign, make them out of stacked TAPERED sheet rock in the shape you want.. lay out on a table in proper position, and on top place a sheet of heated plastic, place this DOWN over the letters and vacuum the heck out of it-this gives a 3d affect of the letters.. curious question, ASSUMING the sign shop he is dealing with can do this, could this not be done, then he AB the bare plastic and clear coat?

[Whit]

Shiva,,, you're talking vacuum molding,, letters
are no big deal,, but he wants the image as well,,,
foam would be the way to go on this,,,
chisels or grinder the ruff in,, then can easily shape
with auto body tools and corse sandpaper (60 grit) and
smooth with 80 grit,, prime with a surfacer primer so
it fills the grain to a smooth finish,, then paint the
color desired,, we usually finish with auto clearcoat !!
here's a few pieces we've done,, just the cutout foam
adhered to an MDO board for a base,, letters are Gemini
formed plastic installed with silicone,, foam was installed
with construction adhesive on the board !!!
Again,, Good Luck on it !!!

[Shiva]

cute there Whit, never knew you could do that that way.. interesting

[bigwater]

Yeah, as Whit and Jimmy have already advised, sign foam the whole way. 15 pound sign foam should work great. It can be easily routed, hand carved or sand blasted, and can be coated out with *anything* without melting. I use a brand called Everwood and it's about $375 for a 4x8, 2" thick sheet. Tough as nails... with a workability comparable to cedar if you don't care about the grain. Ask about it at any sign supply shop. It's very common.

Check out the little LAC#3 sand blast unit made by Paasche if you want to have some fun with that sign foam. It's basically the same thing as an airbrush, but it blows sand instead of paint. Just make sure you have a compressor big enough to handle it. It needs a pretty good volume of wind.

[bigwater]

Oh, and I should have mentioned, if you want to do some sandblasting with that little toy I mentioned, be sure to take the appropriate safety precautions. You need a hood to protect your face from bounce back and a respirator to keep from breathing the microscopic sand dust particles. Sandblasting will kill you faster than painting ever could if you don't take the appropriate safety precautions.

If you have any questions about it, ask here. There are several people on board who have extensive experience in sandblasting and the appropriate safety knowledge.

[Whit]

Even on larger projects as well,,,
sandblasting sand has a dryer in it,, to keep
humidity to a workable level,, known as "Silica",,
this is airborn when blasting,, and if inhaled,,,
Drys You Out,, Literally,, from the Inside Out
Care needs to be taken when blasting,, resperators
and such,, same as spraying hazordous materials !!!

[blinddog 99]

Tommy, I concur, Whit and Ron got you covered. This job begs for sign foam. Should be fun for you, the stuff is very workable and is a blast to carve. Take your time and enjoy!
Scott

[Sinontin]

hey thanks you guys,i cant wait to get some foam,im suprised that automotive paint doesnt melt the foam,thats awsome

[Sinontin]

Shiva,,, you're talking vacuum molding,, letters
are no big deal,, but he wants the image as well,,,
foam would be the way to go on this,,,
chisels or grinder the ruff in,, then can easily shape
with auto body tools and corse sandpaper (60 grit) and
smooth with 80 grit,, prime with a surfacer primer so
it fills the grain to a smooth finish,, then paint the
color desired,, we usually finish with auto clearcoat !!
here's a few pieces we've done,, just the cutout foam
adhered to an MDO board for a base,, letters are Gemini
formed plastic installed with silicone,, foam was installed
with construction adhesive on the board !!!
Again,, Good Luck on it !!!

these signs look great,thats the look im goin for thanks for posting them

[fontgeek]

Before you run off and do the sign foam thing, there are a few variables that need to be considered.
First, Yes I would take it to a graphics guy, if for no other reason than to make sure he/she has a copy that can be made into line art as a black and white image before your original gets trashed or mucked up.
That said, you need to look at how and where your sign is going to be placed, and the kind of conditions it is going to have to live in.
3-D is great, but along with those cute little protrusions comes the cleaning and care required to keep it looking good, all those ledges need a lot more labor to be kept clean and painted, and if this is outdoors, you will have birds coming to poop and to nest in a hurry.
If this is going to be down within reach of people, it is going to get abuse, regardless of whether it is indoors or outdoors, outdoors would get more, but both places will do there damage. The lighter density the material, the easier it is to cut and carve, but it is also easier to ding and break. The heavier stuff weighs more as you go up in density, and the costs rise as well.
This is great material, but you need to be realistic in your use and expectations.
If people can hit it, throw rocks at it, climb it, etc., they will try to. Abuse seems to be part of human nature.
Sorry to sound so pessimistic, but you should go at this with open eyes and an informed brain.

[bigwater]

Say what you want Brian, but the current generation of sign foam is just as tough, or more so, as wood. So if you're going to make a three dimensional sign and don't need the grain properties of wood, you're safe going with sign foam. Like I said, workability of sign foam is about the same as cedar, and the structural integrity is better. It carves like wood, takes coating like wood, acts like wood, and in a whole lot of cases lasts longer than wood.

*Nothing* is going to stand up to a certain level of abuse, but I've got carved three dimensional foam stop signs out there that have been hit by cars and the foam stood up better than the car did. I've got a hand carved wooden sign sitting in pieces in my shop right now because some amateur drunk driver took it out on New Year's eve, and have no doubt that if I had originally done the thing in 15 lb Everwood (sign foam) I wouldn't be having to re-carve the thing this weekend. All I'd be doing is replacing the wooden post.

[Sinontin]

thanks for the info fontgeek,the sign is going up on a gable end of the build ,it will be around 12 to 14 feet of the ground,i m ight mount the lettering a couple of inches off the rest of the sign and put some neon lights behind them so they can be read at night,or just put a light under the whole thing

[Sinontin]

does anyone do cnc foam milling ?that would be nice for the lettering ,thanks folks

[JimmyG]

Using Gemini plastic letters would be cheaper Tommy.....If all your other painting on the dimensional elements is glossy, plastic letters would fit with other elements...You would to use Gemini's custom cnc letters and they wouldn't look at dimensional unless mounted of the surface with studs and spacers.....

I would look thru your local yellow pages and find all the companies say ina 50 mile radius with cnc machines or that advertise HDU signs.....That way you could save some shipping....If you don't find some one local we can look for some wholesalers for you....

[Whit]

Gemini,,,
http://www.signletters.com/

[JimmyG]

Here's a couple more links for ya Tommy.....

http://www.jpsigns.com/dimensional.php

http://www.sandblasted.com/individual_routed_Letters.html

[Sinontin]

yea thats good to know,i could use gemini for the "recording studio" part, but im thinkin about doin the "Black Dog" in bone letters so i will have to carve them,what do ya think? thanks for the info fellas but thats not set in stone or bone

[bigwater]

Be aware that Gemini has a limited number of fonts available, so your design may have to be modified unless you're willing to pony up some serious bucks to get custom molded letters made.

As far as CNC routing goes, contact Kimon over at Signforums.com. He might be able to recommend somebody closer to you, but he's the guy I turn to for my routing work. Bang up good dude who will treat you right. Only problem I can see is shipping the finished product from Alabama to New York.

[Sinontin]

im trying to figure out a price for this job,what would you guys get for somrthing like this?im thinkin the sign will be around 6'x8' 3d hdu airbrushed and cleared and installed ,thanks for the help

[Whit]

First off,, I'm thinkin for the 6x8,, you're gonna
need a coupla 4x8's to make it,, that being a splice
of the optional 2x8 to make the 6 on here,,, that means
you charge for the 2 4x8's and gives you a 2x8 scrap
that's yours (hahaha,, only way to play),,,,,
standard sizes in these areas run in the 4x8 but in some
cases you can find 5x10's,, and 4x10's,, just depends
who/what/when/where you buy from !!!
Ballpark figure here on what you describe runs $5/6k area
but could run less,, could run more,, would have to see
the game plan on the project for deff pricing !!!
Good Luck on it !!!

[fontgeek]

Ron, in almost all ways, the HDU is better than wood, you can glue up pieces to get the desired shape or bulk, you can glue up pieces of different densities, you can use the sawdust to help use as filler, there's no rot, no mildew, you don't face the warp, crown, twist, etc. that you do with wood, and you can use a grain frame for the sandblasted redwood look, or paint in faux wood textures if desired.
Because of the placement of the sign, I don't think the abuse from climbing will be an issue, but I have seen people make the mistake of using too light a grade of the HDU where it could be reached or hit by the kids jumping and smacking the sign, once case had the customer do a nicely carved piece that he mounted right over the door, the poor thing never stood a chance. Within 4 months, the customer was back, and even though he hand been warned on the material choice and the placement of the finished piece, he still wanted to blame us (wow, what a surprise), he thought we should do a replacement for free or at cost. Didn't happen. We did carve a new one for him, but this time out of a much denser grade material, and we got him to mount it in a different place. While he doesn't have the carving greeting the people as they come in anymore, he does still have a sign that looks great, and has drawn a great many compliments.

You can use all your wood tools on the HDU, so carving, sanding, grinding, using a rasp, etc. , can all help you to get the look you want. Absolutely wonderful stuff.

[bigwater]

I can see your point Brian. The gable end of a building 12-14' off the ground is most certainly a vandal prone area.

[vikingo]

I have no experiences on 3D signwork. But the rough layout looks great so far. I have no doubt on Your creativity on that sign, when I'n looking on what you can create with the airbrush.